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My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

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Re: My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

#131

Post by makenova »

idlewords wrote: post #105
makenova wrote: post #96

I applied to IFTTT about a year ago (didn't get the job), part of the interview process was to develop a channel on their developer platform. I don't consider my self a fast developer but it wasn't difficult and it took me about a weekend of casual work. Maciej is well within his rights to flip IFTTT the bird, but I just wanted to provide some context about how much work is involved.

I agree that implementing a simple API endpoint is easy. Running that endpoint is not easy. Once it's live, you're dealing with an entangled system of API, user, network, database, server, full moon, voodoo curse, and God knows what else. It's a giant flaming tumbleweed of pain. Clearly IFTTT agrees, and that's why they're trying to make us do it for them.

You're absolutely right. I will not try to compare what I did to pinboard. I still have the channel running on a DigitalOcean box and even though the service is simple and stable, I still have to fiddle with it once in a while. I only keep it running because it's valuable... to me.

Re: My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

#133

Post by grey-area »

lindentibbets wrote: post #73

I am the CEO over at IFTTT. I apologize for any misunderstanding our communications today have caused. I built the Pinboard Channel on IFTTT and have maintained it for years. I am also a paying customer of Pinboard! I’ve built for hundreds of platforms and any changes to those platforms by default suck. At IFTTT, we've been on the receiving end of platform changes too many times to count. I want to make sure we do it…

This isn't just about time, though that's also really cheeky of you since the plumbing is the sole value you provide, who would sign insane terms like this?

You shall not...use the Developer Tool or Service in conjunction with a product or service that competes with products or services offered by IFTTT

IFTTT shall own all right, title, and interest (and all related moral rights and intellectual property rights) in and to the Developer Tool, Service, and Content.

Perhaps Pinboard should come up with some equally crazy terms and ask you to sign it in order to use their service.

Re: My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

#134

Post by gexla »

timv wrote: post #70
gexla wrote: post #66

Isn't much of the legal stuff just a way to cover their tails? For example, the bit about owning content. Do they really want your content? Is content on the internet worth anything these days? If your content is worth something, it's likely the Google ranking which gives it value rather than the content itself. I imagine that's just an attempt to keep people from suing over reproducing content to go over the pipes.…

> Isn't much of the legal stuff just a way to cover their tails? Sure, but most of it puts your tail on the line instead. They've decided that they somehow have enough power to make you do their job, and make sure you do it in a way that protects their legal interests over yours. You'd be a fool to agree to it. > Do they really want your content? Yes. Their lawyer told them that it was a good idea to make sure their…

I feel like there are two sides you can take on this. There is the "ideal" side where we read all the fine print and stay away from services which violate X elements which we individually consider as going over the line. Then there is the boots on the ground reality which is what really happens vs. what could happen.

I don't think either side is right or wrong. I see people like RMS as being on the extreme end of the ideal side. He may be right. His tech usage habits from his beliefs may work for him. But I'm not willing to go that far.

I think leverage may be a silent force in this case. If X service has terms I hate but I feel like I really need the traffic I can generate from that service (so that I can eat) then I'm probably going to jump on it. If I feel like I don't need the service, then I may not bother. I may complain about the terms, but being unwilling to put in the effort for something I feel I don't need might be the greatest force.

In the Philippines, all businesses are on Facebook because Facebook is the internet. Facebook plays similar games with their terms (as does a long list of services). But if you want to advertise to locals, you don't have much choice but to give in.

I would like to see someone who is expert in this area weigh in on why these services come up with these terms. IFTTT isn't going to be selling or using user generated content. I don't see that Pinboard has any content to lose of their own (all of their content is user generated?)

I'm sure I'm wrong, but the only reason I can come up with is to cover your ass if someone sues you for content which goes through your wires and potentially gets displayed on your site. Covering your ass isn't evil. Attempting to remove the right for one side to sue in the normal operation of the service is attempting to create a lopsided relationship (one side gains powers while the other side loses powers.) But they may be necessary for a service which has received funding and could be a target for court battles.

I don't agree with much of your logic.

> If it's not important, then it didn't need to exist in the first place. If it needs to exist, then it's worth reading.

I have a spam folder in my email which I would submit as evidence to refute this point. I could also submit my Facebook feed, Twitter feed and a whole bunch of other sources.

Re: My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

#135

Post by qznc »

guelo wrote: post #58
nickspacek wrote: post #52

I have to admit I use IFTTT to take an RSS feed from our kid's elementary school and post the entries to a Facebook Fan Page. The idea being to avoid having to teach my wife to use an RSS reader, now she (and another hundred or so people) get the school news without leaving Facebook. I feel conflicted in some ways but pragmatism wins. Anyone know a non-IFTTT way to set this up?

If you're a self respecting programmer you should write the 10 line script your self.

The problem is not the 10 line script. The problem is maintaining it. Adapt it whenever something changes, preferably before it breaks. Keep it running on some server. Monitor that.

Re: My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

#136

Post by danpalmer »

rtpg wrote: post #125
timv wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I apologize for any misunderstanding our communications today have caused I'm not so sure there is a misunderstanding. The facts seem relatively clear: - You want services to implement your proprietary API so that IFTTT integration with their service runs more smoothly. - Your business success is predicated on other services providing those APIs, but you want them to do the work for no reward. - You have license te…

On the other side of the spectrum, do you expect Slack to maintain the Slack integration you write for your webapp? Do you expect Microsoft to maintain Excel plugins? Of course they might do so for a couple vital ones to help jumpstart the integration system, but it's not black and white. IFTTT is a bit different because this is their value-add. But is it so different that you can make a claim that in a context-free…

The thing is, integration is what IFTTT does. Their entire product is connecting different shaped pipes together. It's their core-competency.

Sure, they got bitten by platform changes, but reacting to that was under their control. Now when the services change, they're going to have to wait for the engineering teams at the service providers to prioritise getting that integration working again.

Excel isn't its plugins, Slack isn't its integrations, IFTTT is only its integrations.

Re: My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

#137

Post by kybernetyk »

jonny_eh wrote: post #118
fenomas wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author noted in the comments that nobody signs it, it's a passive "By using our developer site you agree.." agreement.

Are those even enforceable?

Do you have the funds to defend yourself in such a lawsuit?

Re: My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

#138

Post by idlewords »

bambax wrote: post #123
lindentibbets wrote: post #73

I am the CEO over at IFTTT. I apologize for any misunderstanding our communications today have caused. I built the Pinboard Channel on IFTTT and have maintained it for years. I am also a paying customer of Pinboard! I’ve built for hundreds of platforms and any changes to those platforms by default suck. At IFTTT, we've been on the receiving end of platform changes too many times to count. I want to make sure we do it…

Being CEO of IFTTT must not be a very demanding job if you offer to come over to every service that connects to your platform, in order to contribute to coding their API. Joking aside, Maciej isn't asking for "more time", he's asking for: 1. Money, if he has to do your work for you 2. Some kind of guaranty that your undocumented, private API won't change without notice in the future, rendering all this work useless 3…

Actually, all I want is for existing IFTTT recipes that use Pinboard not to break.

I am fine with IFTTT discontinuing support for my site because of our diverging views on whether a service like IFTTT should be a platform or a roll of duct tape, but the stuff people have duct-taped together should stay duct-taped together.

Re: My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

#139

Post by idlewords »

icebraining wrote: post #128
jwise0 wrote: post #111

HN meta: I'm sort of disappointed that this has been getting downvoted. Obviously, what Linden is saying in this case is probably not helping his business case. It's clear to me that he either does not understand why Maciej doesn't want to implement a private API, or does not wish to understand it. On the other hand, neither of those things are grounds for a downvote, I think. A downvote says "this content shouldn't…

A downvote says "this content shouldn't be on HN" Ehh, I'm not sure that's generally accepted. A few years back pg himself did say downvotes could be used for showing simple disagreement, and many people seem to agree even today.

pg was also fond of using hellbanning to express disagreement.

Re: My Heroic and Lazy Stand Against IFTTT

#140

Post by sam_goody »

icebraining wrote: post #128
jwise0 wrote: post #111

HN meta: I'm sort of disappointed that this has been getting downvoted. Obviously, what Linden is saying in this case is probably not helping his business case. It's clear to me that he either does not understand why Maciej doesn't want to implement a private API, or does not wish to understand it. On the other hand, neither of those things are grounds for a downvote, I think. A downvote says "this content shouldn't…

A downvote says "this content shouldn't be on HN" Ehh, I'm not sure that's generally accepted. A few years back pg himself did say downvotes could be used for showing simple disagreement, and many people seem to agree even today.

If people use downvotes to show disagreement, than HN is sunk. No-one likes downvotes, and it will create a community where people only post those comments that they think everyone will agree with. Instead, downvotes should only be sed to highlight comments that should never have been made.
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