Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases • Hacker News Board

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#121

Post by md224 » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 2:19 AM UTC

Fordrus wrote: post #117

md224 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this wacky idea that maybe, just maybe we should reconsider the point at which opiates would be appropriate for treating depression. I mean maybe make them a 2nd or 3rd line treatment... right now I'm pretty sure they'd only give you opiates once that whole "induce a controlled seizure" thing fails. Sure, they're addictive, but the "opium cure" was used up until the 1950's[1] and it's not like society was over…

Rofl! These are interesting points, and honestly, cause for deep thought. If these premises are sound, one might argue that a large part of the rise of clinical depression as the problem is presently constituted coincided with the phasing out of the so-called 'opium cure.' XD (I'm so not willing to commit to that position, but I mean, just looking at only those facts you've popped in right there, it sure looks like a…

If you're interested in studying the closest thing to it, look at the rise in popularity of Kratom, a Southeast Asian plant containing opioid alkaloids. It's commonly used by opiate addicts as a replacement therapy, and also by others as self-medication for anxiety, depression, and pain.

I'm not recommending anyone try it... nobody's entirely sure if it's safe, or if it could function as a gateway drug to harder opiates. But it's worth considering the good it may be doing for some people.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#122

Post by slaxman » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 2:35 AM UTC

There is major difference with being depressed and having clinical depression. I have been fighting the latter for the last few years and I can vouch for there being no cause.

Example: I was with my extended family members in mountains of coffee plantations enjoying a vacation. There was no internet connection and thus nothing to disturb me. We were all (over 20 of us) having a great time. We were playing a game of cricket, where during the game I had a depression attack and almost collapsed on the ground. There was nothing there to upset me at all.

This is just one example. I have faced many more in a similar manner.

There is one thing for sure. Community support helps you fight depression very well. I am a member of a Buddhist group and their encouragement and support has really help me fight it.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#123

Post by anon4this1 » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 2:36 AM UTC

md224 wrote: post #112

Fordrus wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, this is a fantastic and beautiful deconstruction of this argument, I LOVE this. The comparison to chronic pain is fantastic , because indeed, chronic pain is a side effect of many conditions, and if we were able to relieve the chronic pain somehow, we certainly would, but being currently unable, we seek means to treat the chronic pain . I've often held that the most insidious part about clinical depression is its…

I have this wacky idea that maybe, just maybe we should reconsider the point at which opiates would be appropriate for treating depression. I mean maybe make them a 2nd or 3rd line treatment... right now I'm pretty sure they'd only give you opiates once that whole "induce a controlled seizure" thing fails. Sure, they're addictive, but the "opium cure" was used up until the 1950's[1] and it's not like society was over…

each year 19,000 americans die from prescription opioid overdoses and another 10,000 die from heroin overdoses which often start with prescription opioid use.

In my experience (as an anaesthesiologist), people who use opioids as a response to non-pain problems are some of the most miserable people there are. It might work for a couple of weeks, but soon you're tolerant, addicted, intermittently withdrawing and your life becomes a wreck. "The prevalence of suicide attempts among opioid addicts is reported to lie between 8% and 17%, with some studies reporting an even higher rate among special groups of addicts. " http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9018906

Using MDMA might be useful as it is non-addictive, but again habitual use leads to decreasing benefits and increasing problems.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#124

Post by jbeja » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 2:45 AM UTC

> in this context is EXACTLY like feeling pain from a broken arm, feeling cold being outside in the cold, and feeling hungry after going 24 hours without food.

If not the same. With this problems, you immediately want to find the means to ease them on 100% of the cases. On the other side, depression does exactly the opposite most of the cases.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#125

Post by bischofs » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 2:48 AM UTC

What does this have to do with software or tech? are developers all depressed or something? Is this site just turning into another reddit? Someone please help me to understand why hacker news should be a safe place for depressed people to talk about their feelings, there has to be a better venue for that.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#126

Post by jbeja » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 2:56 AM UTC

lotyrin wrote: post #18

funkysquid wrote: post #2

> Or if you are outside for a long time in the cold with no jacket, upon feeling very cold, you don’t say that you have "a coldness disorder". A better example for anxiety or depression would be standing inside in a warm room, and despite everyone else in the room being comfortable, you are unable to warm up at all. When you complain, you are told that "everyone gets cold sometimes". This article doesn't seem to have…

I disagree, this is pretty different from depression-is-just-sadness. The article is not shortcutting to a non-solution, it's pointing out that there can be overlooked root causes beyond the symptom, and this can be a very valuable thing to point out to people, leading to actionable solutions to their problem. I was diagnosed depressed for many years, and it turned out I simply had the expected affect given I was not…

Very interesting, specially the obsession with staying employed. How you deal with that?

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#127

Post by dgudkov » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 2:57 AM UTC

rsp1984 wrote: post #39

I'm not a psychologist or have received any other professional training in this direction but really I think there are two types of depression. - Clinical depression. The disease type that for many "comes out of nowhere" and paralyzes people to the point where they can't leave bed any more. I'd venture to say it's the minority of cases but the author may be wrong in putting them in the same group as the... - Symptom…

Clinical depression is frequently caused by extreme emotional long-term fatigue which is self-sustained because of not identified and fixed issues that cause the depression. So it's not a pathology, it's just very extreme fatigue. To make an analogy -- loosing weight because of not eating is not a pathology. Fix nutrition and you will stop losing weight. But if you don't fix it -- you can get into a very severe condition. Again, not because of some pathology, but because of malnutrition.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#128

Post by jacalata » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 3:01 AM UTC

brador wrote: post #38

xlm1717 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely agree with this. The exchange the doctor describes to begin the article is also common online. I've spent a lot of time in anxiety and depression support forums and chat rooms for my own problems with anxiety. The most common view is that anxiety and depression are diseases that you need to take medicine to treat. No doubt medicine has its uses in treating anxiety and depression, a momentary reprieve can g…

There are also some forums where people discuss abusing a depression/anxiety diagnosis to claim disability welfare. This is much more widespread than most people realise since the rates are higher and the requirements much lower than regular welfare. It's a surprisingly cushy lifestyle, and some would do anything to keep it. And that entire structure is dependent on depression/anxiety being seen as a medical problem…

> the rates are higher

could you explain this? I've never heard about it.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#129

Post by dools » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 3:06 AM UTC

anon4this1 wrote: post #123

md224 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this wacky idea that maybe, just maybe we should reconsider the point at which opiates would be appropriate for treating depression. I mean maybe make them a 2nd or 3rd line treatment... right now I'm pretty sure they'd only give you opiates once that whole "induce a controlled seizure" thing fails. Sure, they're addictive, but the "opium cure" was used up until the 1950's[1] and it's not like society was over…

each year 19,000 americans die from prescription opioid overdoses and another 10,000 die from heroin overdoses which often start with prescription opioid use. In my experience (as an anaesthesiologist), people who use opioids as a response to non-pain problems are some of the most miserable people there are. It might work for a couple of weeks, but soon you're tolerant, addicted, intermittently withdrawing and your l…

Saying that prescription opioid use is a cause of heroin overdoses ignores the fact that the reason people move to heroin is because of the paranoia about addiction which causes their prescriptions to be cut off in the first place.

In the same vein (no pun intended) I've been looking for stats but not being able to find anything about what percentage of prescription opioid overdoses occur while the patient is being actively prescribed, versus those which occur when the patient is obtaining the drugs illegally once their prescription has been cut off because doctors are afraid they'll become addicted.

Re: Anxiety and Depression Are Symptoms, Not Diseases

#130

Post by stephenboyd » Tue, Mar 29, 2016, 3:36 AM UTC

funkysquid wrote: post #2

> Or if you are outside for a long time in the cold with no jacket, upon feeling very cold, you don’t say that you have "a coldness disorder". A better example for anxiety or depression would be standing inside in a warm room, and despite everyone else in the room being comfortable, you are unable to warm up at all. When you complain, you are told that "everyone gets cold sometimes". This article doesn't seem to have…

The author makes his point clearer in his follow-up article:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201603...

His position is that investigating the practical causes of depression and anxiety should be the first approach to diagnosis, not that it should be the only approach. It's not that cases of depression without another cause don't exist; he's just saying those cases are less common.

To compare it with physical pain, saying that most cases are symptoms of something else doesn't mean that the pain shouldn't be treated, nor that cases of unknown or genetic origin would be any less legitimate.