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Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

nytimes.com

111–120 of 266 posts

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#111
post #77

Manufacturing isn't coming back. Do you think your average American would put up with the conditions in a Chinese iPhone factory?

That's the wrong question. Would they put up with the conditions in a US factory?

It's common to see negative opinions of manufacturing jobs here and on other tech sites. I've worked in one the UK, doing 12 hour long day and night shifts (as a lab tech; I now have a PhD). It was long and hard work, being on your feet around a huge complex collecting samples from all the stages in production and then analysing them to strict deadlines. But you know what, I had greater job satisfaction from doing that than any other job to date, including the position I have now at a university. When I left the factory gates at the end of a shift, I was done, and could head home and relax in the knowledge that I'd done a good job, done my bit to keep the site and production running, and made a small but net positive contribution to the world. And got paid a decent wage for it. And working on a site with a big workforce can be very friendly environment with a lots of camaraderie with everyone working to the same goal to keep production running. You can have a lot of fun while on the job, while also working hard. As a software developer in acadaemia, and I suspect for many software developers in general, work never ends. When I leave work, the unfinished problems and backlog of untackled problems don't go away, which when coupled with deadlines and team communication, admin etc., can lead to significant amounts of stress and unhappiness and depression which I never encountered before. I suspect the lack of physical activity also contributes. And working in an open plan office with everyone plugged into headphones and on IM all day is much less social; at times I think it's like working with zombies!

In the UK, factory workers have strong legal requirements for safe working conditions, limits on hours, union representation if desired, and a host of other protections. The US has less strong employment protections, but I understand health and safety rules and maximum work hours etc. are decent. But would people want to work in a modern purpose-built manufacturing facility in the US? Hell, yes. Working on something like that can give real meaning and purpose to one's life, to be doing something real that actually contributes something physical to the world. Even if you're a small cog in a giant machine. As you head out of the factory gates and see the stream of lorries heading out loaded with product, you know that without your work that shift, they wouldn't be going, and that can give you genuine satisfaction. Ask the millions of people who lost their factory jobs to offshoring if they would go back for an answer with real meaning. I strongly suspect you'd have a majority vote yes.

I know this might not be a popular opinion, but I'll say it anyway. Manufacturing is what made the UK and the US into industrial powerhouses, which lead directly to the prosperity and quality of life we have enjoyed for decades, and its rapid decline has lead to a steep decline of both for many people, and a whole host of social problems. While the idea that a service economy will take over has been strongly pushed on both sides of the pond, it's obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that this isn't self sustaining; these are not wealth-creating industries since unlike manufacturing, they only transfer existing wealth around.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#112
post #38

Adam Smith was making this same argument the only time he ever used the term "invisible hand." Smith assumed (incorrectly) that capitalists would always prefer their own domestic markets. For Smith, his conception of capitalism was good because it offered the best chance at achieving equality. However, globalization of capital has proven that his underlying assumptions were incorrect, so it may very well be that Smit…

I think you may be wrong in your interpretation of the present situation. Instead of concluding that, because modern capitalists are happy to invest abroad, Smith was wrong about their preferences, you could conclude that the world is becoming so integrated that the difference between foreign and domestic is less relevant than ever. In other words, the entire world is "domestic".

I think this could be a reasonable conclusion given the increase in the strength of property rights for foreigners ("he intends his own security") and the decrease in transportation costs and time, the two things I assume Smith was reasoning about.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#113
post #95
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the absolutely embarrassing state of our country, hole diggers are exactly what we need. Legitimately go pay someone to dig holes all day and lay single-mode fiber to every home. Pay them to turn a wrench replacing support brackets on a bridge. The Works program was the single most successful employer in this country's history and we replaced it with welfare because "unemployment is low and we don't need it any…

Today, the ditch digging s done with small excavators, not with hordes of guys with shovels...

Today's ditch digging is done with emacs and vim, building useless CRUD apps

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#114
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the absolutely embarrassing state of our country, hole diggers are exactly what we need. Legitimately go pay someone to dig holes all day and lay single-mode fiber to every home. Pay them to turn a wrench replacing support brackets on a bridge. The Works program was the single most successful employer in this country's history and we replaced it with welfare because "unemployment is low and we don't need it any…

And when they're done? What about the jobs!

The infrastructure in this country is in an absolutely dilapidated state. Roads are potholed, bridges are collapsing, water and sewage pipes date back to the Civil War, Internet connectivity is expensive and slow. There's more than enough work to keep a whole lot of people busy for a generation, if we're willing to pay for it.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#115
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a significant confluence among those who find prosperity and purpose through jobs to conflate the concepts of employment and purpose. That to not have a job is to not have a purpose, and vice versa. If we had a planned economy built around peak employment, we would have many fewer entrepreneurs and many more, as you say, hole diggers. Socially we already do that. We have created a gargantuan advertis…

I am reminded of what George Orwelles wrote in "Down and out in Paris and London": > Beggars do not work, it is said; but then, what is work? A navvy works by swinging a pick. An accountant works by adding up figures. A beggar works by standing out of doors in all weathers and getting varicose veins, bronchitis etc. It is a trade like any other; quite useless, of course — but, then, many reputable trades are quite us…

You cannot pay a cost you impose on others with self induced suffering. I cannot steal and break my own toe to "pay it back". That justification is nonsense.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire global economy since the beginning of time is about consuming. What makes you think it would fall apart at all?

Isn't it already happening. If you put a population of flies in a closed container, even with an unlimited food supply, their population will grow and grow until it hits a peak and collapases. We are smarter than flies but to think we are not also constrained by nature is folly?

The only reason the fly colony would collapse is if it ran out of a resource. No point in giving them an unlimited food supply because it's a resource like any other.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with a job-centric economy is that it's based on the need of humans rather than the needs of the economy. Society is made up of humans. The economy in your case is the tail wagging the dog. The problem with your train of thought is that it isn't sustainable. When people get fed up and start burning ubers, the folks betting against people will be the ones finding their backs on he wall.

Are you familiar with the term "force multiplier?" How many people has the US military killed over the last 10 years? How many US military personnel have been killed? The ratio is on the order of 100:1. (I'm not making any kind of moral judgement about the US military here, just pointing out it's raw effectiveness at a core competency, which is killing without being killed.) People are not a great bet in the present…

I guess the glow of our glorious and decisive victories in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam blinded me.

People matter.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire global economy since the beginning of time is about consuming. What makes you think it would fall apart at all?

Isn't it already happening. If you put a population of flies in a closed container, even with an unlimited food supply, their population will grow and grow until it hits a peak and collapases. We are smarter than flies but to think we are not also constrained by nature is folly?

No one denies that we are constrained by nature and limited resources. There are two things that preclude your hypothetical "collapse" event from happening.

1. Scientific discovery and innovation. People were all in huge panic in the 17/18/19th century about the ability of our limited amount of land to feed the (exponentially-growing) populace, yet discovery of new methods/technologies increased the hypothetical yield such that the point became moot.

2. We live in a feedback-loop system. In the absence of perverse (and universal) government incentives, society will slow-down as resources become scarce. That is, until point number 1 kicks in again and the cycle starts fresh.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#119

> “All of us in business,” Mr. Grove wrote, “have a responsibility to maintain the industrial base on which we depend and the society whose adaptability — and stability — we may have taken for granted.” Thats the money quote to me, and so much of what is overlooked when talking about industry and to a large extent, social welfare programs. I wish the overton window included the concept of the costs required to mainta…

Yes. And not only business leaders, but also the economists who've been giving these business leaders intellectual cover (and advising presidents) for decades now.

It seems that today's high ranking economists, who are highly influential and defend their intellectual turf aggressively, rely on models which ignore/omit Mr. Grove's industrial policy insights.

US consumers get cheaper manufactured goods if the US economy just simply outsources all orders for these goods to factories in East Asia. And that seems to be about as deep as these economic analyses go.

But where is the economic analysis that recognizes and quantifies the cost of losing so much domestic manufacturing capability?

When I see how long it takes Indiegogo and Kickstarter hardware makers to actually create their finished products -- because they have to travel to China to meet with part suppliers and manufacturers -- I wonder how much US innovation has been crippled by the policies top US economists have confidently articulated and defended for the last 30 or 40 years.

Re: Andy Grove’s Warning to Silicon Valley

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire global economy since the beginning of time is about consuming. What makes you think it would fall apart at all?

Isn't it already happening. If you put a population of flies in a closed container, even with an unlimited food supply, their population will grow and grow until it hits a peak and collapases. We are smarter than flies but to think we are not also constrained by nature is folly?

A closed system can grow as long as consumption becomes more efficient over time.
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