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The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

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Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#161

How much of the poor performance discussed in this article is due to Chrome itself, and how much is due to the fact that Android devices tend to have worse single-core performance than iOS devices? Is there a browser for Android based on a recent version of WebKit (not Blink)? If so, that would help answer the question.

The single-core performance of the most common Android SoCs are from 50-70% the single-core performance of the iPhone 6s. They're going to be slower, but for most web loads that should be "imperceptibly slower" because it might be 3ms instead of 2ms.

Chrome on Android absolutely seems to be a bit like Superman -- it is strong and mighty much of the time, but when it faces certain otherwise benign kryptonite scenarios, performances fall through the floor, to the point of comedy.

Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#162
I didn't see the author at any point question the performance of their JS framework. More specifically, it seems like the author is using Ember for their apps. My (very rough) understanding is that Ember tends to have a lot of issues running on V8. Due to the way Ember is written, V8 tends to have a hard time optimizing for it.

Looking at the dbmon benchmarks there's a big difference between Ember performance: http://mathieuancelin.github.io/js-repaint-perfs/ember/

And the performance of other frameworks/libraries:

Angular: http://mathieuancelin.github.io/js-repaint-perfs/angular/

Polymer: http://mathieuancelin.github.io/js-repaint-perfs/polymer/

React (optimized impl): http://mathieuancelin.github.io/js-repaint-perfs/react/opt.h...

Where the other libraries all cluster around the same framerate, Ember is running in the single frames. I know that benchmarks can be written in a way to make one library look pathological so this is just one data point, but I wanted to throw it out there. I agree that it would be great if V8 and Ember played better together :)

Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#163
post #89

I'm curious to see some actual benchmarks... In my experience, Chrome still has the fastest JavaScript. It still renders WebGL pages the best (although Emscripten allows Firefox some impressive feats). Does Safari have some special extensions for the shitty 'native look' apps I encounter at Apple.com? Did their JavaScript engine become 100x faster in the year or so since I've used it? Is the author comparing an iPhon…

bizarre that a comment asking for actual benchmarks is downvoted in the face of a hundred upvoted handwavey comments about people's current favorite browser.

Not that bizarre, lots of threads about the superiority of Apple technology wind up like this.

I just found it odd and infuriating that the blog post said Safari is 3-300 times faster, but then literally offered no justification whatsoever. Also didn't even show a link to anything that can be tested, literally nothing objective.

Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari is also the only desktop browser that can handle my "power user" web browsing style. Chrome completely falls over after a few dozen tabs are opened. Firefox holds up better, but still starts starts stuttering when it gets to 80–100 tabs. Safari keeps going fine with several hundred tabs. Edit: For the folks who are apparently offended by my browser use, I’ll elaborate: Why would anyone want a large number of t…

I can't imagine opening 10 tabs, let alone hundreds of tabs without tree-style-tabs. And only firefox has the infastructure to support such changes to its UI. I would say that the only broweser that supports your use case is firefox, not safari.

When he says research, he means porn. 100 tabs of porn.

Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#165
I remember saying in 2008/2009 that IE and Opera (because it used the same or similar JS engine) had some of the best reasons for failing with regard to badly coded JavaScript. I would always just open up IE to check to see if my code was "valid" even when I wasn't targeting IE specifically. Just swallowing errors is not good practice, but I can't say that I noticed this in Chrome, tbh. I can say that Chrome's dev console is better than Safari's/Webkit's. Chrome isn't my default browser, I really only open it for flash content and to debug a site's JS when Safari isn't giving me the info that I need. I agree with the overall tone of the article -- (mobile) Safari is a decent browser, and in a lot of ways, a better experience for both the user and developer than Chrome. In some ways it isn't.

Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#166
I have been a little mad at Safari while building a website recently (https://windmill.thefifthmatt.com), and the issues I ran into seemed like Safari's "fault"—it does not implement several web features such as requestPointerLock which Chrome and Firefox implement, so I had to jerry-rig worse experiences for Safari users. I had to neuter a Content-Security-Policy header because Safari refused to render a font no matter what font-src was... still have not figured that one out. Mobile browsers are similar here, although I have not tried out Safari remote debugging (only Chrome remote debugging).

Obviously both browsers are developed by highly talented software engineers (disclaimer: biased Google employee here, not in Chrome, speaking for self). But I think type of website and upfront ecosystem investment have some effect on where the most development pain comes from. My naive guess is that rich content consumption sites are easier to do in Safari, more app-like long-tail-of-features stuff easier in Chrome. If this is true, why? My guess is that Apple has its own idea of which general-purpose platform it'd prefer to most invest in.

Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#167

I think the biggest issue is the high variance in performance between browsers overall, coupled with the declarative nature of UI rendering using the DOM. I have a UI that runs very smoothly in Chrome and Safari (desktop, not mobile). As of Firefox 44, it's unrunnable in Firefox. Why? Don't know. Profiling says we're losing a bunch of time in "layout" but why we're losing a bunch of time in layout, I can't tell. Chro…

Can you link it?

Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#168

I didn't see the author at any point question the performance of their JS framework. More specifically, it seems like the author is using Ember for their apps. My (very rough) understanding is that Ember tends to have a lot of issues running on V8. Due to the way Ember is written, V8 tends to have a hard time optimizing for it. Looking at the dbmon benchmarks there's a big difference between Ember performance: http:/…

You might be onto something here. Jeff Atwood posted several months ago about Android's suboptimal JavaScript performance in the context of Discourse [1], and that also uses Ember. I wonder what characteristics of Ember might make it suboptimal under V8.

[1]: https://meta.discourse.org/t/the-state-of-javascript-on-andr...

Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to compare to Safari and iOS devices to see the real difference.

You are right. I ran a futuremark test on chrome, ff and safari (iphone 6) and chrome was the slowest BUT in terms of actual website loading, chrome was faster than FF. Although safari beat them all significantly! Future mark scores: Chrome:618 FF: 728 Safari: 2348 Actual website loading speeds were near instant on safari, followed by laggy chrome and incredibly slow FF.

While your test is exactly what is expected from iPhones, it says nothing about their performance on other devices.

Chrome and Firefox on the iPhone are not the same Chrome and Firefox found on desktop and android devices. Apple restricts apps that provide web browsing to use old and outdated versions of the native IOS rendering engine and JavaScript engine.

http://www.howtogeek.com/184283/why-third-party-browsers-wil...

Re: The Chrome Distortion: how Chrome negatively alters our expectations

#170
This article appears to be about the speed of ember in Chrome, which is a real complaint, but everything else is just a sideshow.

Adding new features while being slow on others does not make a browser "the new IE". In general, "new IE" arguments are easy to throw out but don't bring much insight, but this instance completely misses the mark in understanding both what was bad about IE around 2000 and what was bad about IE in the decade that followed.

> And herein is the problem; Google implements features that (usually) work at a high pace, but they very rarely make them work efficiently...they introduced us to shiny few features like CSS will-change, requestIdleCallback, and a fairly solid implementation of ServiceWorker in the hope that new tools would magically make their performance gap go away. It doesn't matter to them that even these shiny new tools are 3x+ slower than their peer's counterparts

While new features are apparently rarely made to work efficiently, of the three actual examples mentioned, one is "fairly solid", one (requestIdleCallback) isn't in any other browser, and the last (will-change) is just a modifier of other properties so web developers don't all have to use hacks (translateZ) forced on them years ago by WebKit to get decent GPU support. And only with one of them (the "fairly solid" ServiceWorker) would it make sense to call slower or faster compared to other implementations...but of course there is no ServiceWorker in Safari yet to compare to. I haven't heard (nor can I find) any complaints about ServiceWorker performance in Chrome vs Firefox, but maybe they're out there and really mad about that 3x+ slower implementation in Chrome, for some vague definition of slower.

I do love:

> There's a lot of these errors that Chrome silently ignores or just "deals with", and it leads to code debt that we "think" is due to other browsers being shitty, but honestly it's just what I've come to call "Scumbag Chrome".

and then proceeding to offhandedly mentioning having to work around old Safari flexbox issues, old Safari WebSQL issues...

But those aren't a big deal to the author, because he knows how to quickly work around them. And that's what most of this article is talking about: bugs the author is familiar with are easy to work around, bugs he isn't familiar with aren't. Honestly 90% of this just sounds like he's used to his iphone and Safari devtools and is upset he has to build for other browsers on other machines.

If you think that sounds exactly like someone with a site that only works in Chrome because they're used to the Chrome devtools and they didn't check it in another browser until right before launch, you'd be right.

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