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Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

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Re: Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

#41

Post by matt_wulfeck »

Supporter of EFF here. Just call me skeptical when I read lines like this:

> Bringing together community and campus ... will serve as an increasingly vital hub for activism and organizing

> free expression: people should be able to speak their minds to whomever will listen.

In my experience these types of organizations are not very interested in discussing topics or ideas that might make them feel uncomfortable. See college safe environments as an example.

Why even make this a priority if you don't really mean it?

Re: Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

#42

Post by odinduty »

hackuser wrote: post #14
odinduty wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EFF is a liberal lobby. I'm very concerned they are being regarded as the gatekeepers of our freedom, be it online or offline.

I don't understand why the EFF (and ACLU for that matter) are considered liberal. Aren't they libertarian, if anything? Don't conservatives care about privacy, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, religious freedom, and other civil rights? Rejecting the EFF and ACLU looks to me like partisanship over country or principle: We don't care what they are doing, we're going to reject them because there is some asso…

The ACLU is also a liberal association[1], although I agree liberals and conservatives work together in some issues. There's no doubt about it.

And yes, I think it's okay to reject them, because I am afraid of them gaining affection from everybody just to push an agenda later. If they wanted to herald digital freedom, they should have remained completely neutral in political issues, but they chose not to...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union...

Re: Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

#43

Post by NotOscarWilde »

rustynails wrote: post #37
jordigh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was fully expecting someone in HN to get very upset about Black Lives Matter. I don't know much about them, but judging from their Wikipedia entry, as a whole the movement seems to be doing much more good than harm. It's also a pretty diverse group, and some have used the BLM monicker while being denounced by other members of BLM. So don't paint them all with the same brush. It's like saying that you're against Joh…

Any movement that focuses on one section of society (KKK, feminism) inevitably drives intolerance. Just ask Matt Taylor who was crucified by feminists for wearing a shirt designed by a woman. It is one of many examples that highlights why BLM and feminism are flawed in the same way. EFA should only promote groups who represent everyone equally. You wouldn't accept the KKK, why accept others who encourage equivalent p…

> Any movement that focuses on one section of society (KKK, feminism) inevitably drives intolerance.

If a section of society is marginalized and persecuted in the society as a whole, a movement to equalize things is bound to crop up. By your argument, you would prefer the African-American civil rights movement never to have existed, is that correct?

As a sidenote, I would like to remark that many feminists would like to define feminism as the struggle to end sexism for everybody. Consider this quote by bell hooks:

"In Feminist Theory: From Margin to Center, I suggest that defining feminism broadly as “a movement to end sexism and sexist oppression” would enable us to have a common political goal…Sharing a common goal does not imply that women and men will not have radically divergent perspectives on how that goal might be reached."

Re: Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

#44

Post by iza »

odinduty wrote: post #42
hackuser wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why the EFF (and ACLU for that matter) are considered liberal. Aren't they libertarian, if anything? Don't conservatives care about privacy, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, religious freedom, and other civil rights? Rejecting the EFF and ACLU looks to me like partisanship over country or principle: We don't care what they are doing, we're going to reject them because there is some asso…

The ACLU is also a liberal association[1], although I agree liberals and conservatives work together in some issues. There's no doubt about it. And yes, I think it's okay to reject them, because I am afraid of them gaining affection from everybody just to push an agenda later. If they wanted to herald digital freedom, they should have remained completely neutral in political issues, but they chose not to... [1] https…

How can they be neutral on issues directly related to civil liberties? It seems to me the liberal positions happen to align on issues of personal freedom, not that they are pushing a liberal agenda.

edit: The only questionable thing listed is their position on gun rights.

Re: Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

#45

Post by mtgx »

jordigh wrote: post #7
dreta wrote: post #5

"We anticipate participation from diverse movements such as Occupy, the Tea Party, Black Lives Matter, and the movements for immigrant rights, drug policy reform, peace and justice, gun rights, and others.” Alright, so i’ll be the first to say this. Colleges, and the mentioned movements, ESPECIALLY BLM, have a sick, warped sense of what the word “free expression” means. If you truly want to implement the 5 principles…

I was fully expecting someone in HN to get very upset about Black Lives Matter. I don't know much about them, but judging from their Wikipedia entry, as a whole the movement seems to be doing much more good than harm. It's also a pretty diverse group, and some have used the BLM monicker while being denounced by other members of BLM. So don't paint them all with the same brush. It's like saying that you're against Joh…

It reminds me of how Occupy was discredited: "They're just thugs and lazy people who don't want to work...and they're occupying our parks, for crying out loud!"

Because why would anyone other than thugs and lazy people who don't want to work ever protest Wall Street?

Re: Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

#47

Post by iza »

NotOscarWilde wrote: post #43
rustynails wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any movement that focuses on one section of society (KKK, feminism) inevitably drives intolerance. Just ask Matt Taylor who was crucified by feminists for wearing a shirt designed by a woman. It is one of many examples that highlights why BLM and feminism are flawed in the same way. EFA should only promote groups who represent everyone equally. You wouldn't accept the KKK, why accept others who encourage equivalent p…

> Any movement that focuses on one section of society (KKK, feminism) inevitably drives intolerance. If a section of society is marginalized and persecuted in the society as a whole, a movement to equalize things is bound to crop up. By your argument, you would prefer the African-American civil rights movement never to have existed, is that correct? As a sidenote, I would like to remark that many feminists would like…

(devil's advocate) Arguably feminism has already succeeded in achieving equality by the end of the second wave. Although some feminists may indeed fight to end sexism for everybody, feminism still bears the implicit assumption that women are currently disadvantaged.

Re: Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

#48

Post by mwfunk »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #41

Supporter of EFF here. Just call me skeptical when I read lines like this: > Bringing together community and campus ... will serve as an increasingly vital hub for activism and organizing > free expression: people should be able to speak their minds to whomever will listen. In my experience these types of organizations are not very interested in discussing topics or ideas that might make them feel uncomfortable. See…

If you try to engage with people, you might engage with people or you might not. There's no guarantee that anything will come of it. If you don't try to engage with people, there is absolutely a guarantee that nothing will come of it.

In my experience if you spend your time trying to find choirs to preach to, you're wasting your time even when you succeed. Staying away from groups of people because some of them might disagree with you is counterproductive to all participants.

Re: Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

#49

Post by tptacek »

Karunamon wrote: post #20
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take threads on pointless ideological tangents. You are welcome to not like BLM, but you should know that there's no good outcome to litigating it here.

The EFF is the one that brought it up in the OP...

The EFF mentioned BLM in passing, right after the f'ing Tea Party. The commenter upthread doesn't want to talk about the EFF. They just want to talk about BLM on HN.

Re: Launching the Electronic Frontier Alliance

#50

Post by studentrob »

mehrzad wrote: post #6

I wish the EFF would explain more clearly why digital rights for users are important. Technology in the hands of the few and powerful can lead to authoritarianism, which is part of what makes their work so important. Right now their site only explains that digital rights promote human freedoms. Maybe they don't want to sound too "radical," but for people looking to donate, shouldn't they explain why better privacy, f…

Couldn't agree more. More succinct education with facts, rather than FUD, backing up certain viewpoints is needed. For example I found their open letter to the President about encryption to be too much about math to really attract the kind of reader whose opinion we want to change.
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