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The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

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Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#61

Post by briandear »

neffy wrote: post #57
joesmo wrote: post #14

I don't understand why our society thinks its ok to treat people this way just because they've been convicted of a crime. Being removed from society and put in jail IS the punishment. Why does society suddenly see these people as no longer human, trash that can be dealt with any way, packed like sardines, left helpless to be raped and murdered? Yes, some of these people have done unspeakable things, but they are bein…

Society doesn't think like that. What US society thought, was that everything should be determined by free markets. This is what happens when you put the prison service out to the lowest bidder. And lets not even get into the part where the private companies running the prisons now have a vested interest in hiring lobbyists to provoke tougher sentencing. But perhaps it would be easier simply to stop at Society doesn'…

Have you been in La Sante prison in France? How about any Central, South American or Asian prisons? This has nothing to do with prison privatization and it's clear many don't have a clue of the conditions outside of a few newsworthy European prisons.

Talk to a US consular officer who's been at the job more than five minutes, then we can make some comparisons. Blaming privatization is a red herring.. Venenzuela prisons aren't a place I even want to spend five minutes as a visitor.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#62

Post by briandear »

nuttinwrong wrote: post #20

One look at that cell photo in the article and I think I would bash my head into the wall until I was dead. To think about living in those conditions is unimaginable. To do this to another human being, no matter what crime they committed is pure cruelty. I'd like to see the people who voted for these laws spend 10 days in that cell. Absolutely disgusting.

If more people thought like you, perhaps more people would think twice before raping, murdering and robbing. I have trouble sympathizing with violent criminals.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#64

Post by PhasmaFelis »

Natsu wrote: post #44
llamataboot wrote: post #15

Mass Incarceration is truly one of those things I can't think too much about or I just feel an unrelenting hopelessness and rage. It seems absolutely diabolical to me that in the United States we have simply taken away the humanity of so many people (with absolutely egregious racial and class disparities) in the name of keeping "us" "safer". Not only is it an absolute failure from a moral perspective, it doesn't work…

These are two murderers who decided to kill each other. There are good reasons to leave people like that in actual solitary, so that they're unable to hurt others, but killing each other was never a human response. Nor, given their history, can I glibly conclude that prison made them that way, when all evidence is that the causal arrow points in the opposite direction. I may be somewhat biased. My mother was murdered…

I don't think most people are arguing that these two guys, or people like them, should have been released. The problem is that we're filling up the prisons with drug users and other non-violent offenders, and as a result everyone gets squeezed, from kids who got caught smoking pot right on up to cold-blooded murderers. Fix the overcrowding on the low end, and the high end has room to expand as needed without reducing the sentences for hardened killers.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#65

Post by ljf »

gozur88 wrote: post #56
rdtsc wrote: post #5

People talk about institutional evil. This is an example of it. You can almost trace their thinking "Oh, so solitary is bad now. We'll fix it. Put two people in a 10x4 cell. See, not solitary anymore, and we doubled the capacity too. Bonuses for everyone". Ideally you'd think those who made those decision would be disciplined, pensions would be cut, etc. But nothing like that is gonna happen. Even if the family wins…

>Oh, so solitary is bad now. We'll fix it. Put two people in a 10x4 cell. See, not solitary anymore, and we doubled the capacity too. Bonuses for everyone I doubt that. The people running the system don't decide how many inmates they get or how many beds they have. They put people where they have to put them. And they have to deal with this kind of fallout. They're doubling up because they don't have room to do anyth…

Are they all government employees? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#66

Post by ljf »

ams6110 wrote: post #29
whiddershins wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All humans are capable of horrific acts. It is a part of our humanity, we are apex predators who organize socially. The evolved algorithm in our brain that manages that dissonance is extremely complex and will necessarily fail at times. We can't tolerate or condone antisocial behavior, but it is a mistake to feel safe in the thought "we" are better than "them." We are they, they are we.

No, sorry. Some people kill or viciously assault other people, while most people don't. There's not a moral equivalence there. That said, I do think that the conditions described in the article constitute cruel and unusual punishment, at least by today's standards. I'm not sure what the framers had in mind; I'm sure 18th century prisons were not rose gardens either.

OK, but why does the US have more murders per capita thank most other countries? What could be done to stop those people becoming murders? Or what pathways send people towards a life in prison?

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#67

Post by [deleted] »

ams6110 wrote: post #29
whiddershins wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All humans are capable of horrific acts. It is a part of our humanity, we are apex predators who organize socially. The evolved algorithm in our brain that manages that dissonance is extremely complex and will necessarily fail at times. We can't tolerate or condone antisocial behavior, but it is a mistake to feel safe in the thought "we" are better than "them." We are they, they are we.

No, sorry. Some people kill or viciously assault other people, while most people don't. There's not a moral equivalence there. That said, I do think that the conditions described in the article constitute cruel and unusual punishment, at least by today's standards. I'm not sure what the framers had in mind; I'm sure 18th century prisons were not rose gardens either.

[deleted]

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#68

Post by ljf »

briandear wrote: post #62
nuttinwrong wrote: post #20

One look at that cell photo in the article and I think I would bash my head into the wall until I was dead. To think about living in those conditions is unimaginable. To do this to another human being, no matter what crime they committed is pure cruelty. I'd like to see the people who voted for these laws spend 10 days in that cell. Absolutely disgusting.

If more people thought like you, perhaps more people would think twice before raping, murdering and robbing. I have trouble sympathizing with violent criminals.

OK, but what is making the US a more violent place than other comparable countries? http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/10/02/is_the_u_s...

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#69

Post by ljf »

joesmo wrote: post #14

I don't understand why our society thinks its ok to treat people this way just because they've been convicted of a crime. Being removed from society and put in jail IS the punishment. Why does society suddenly see these people as no longer human, trash that can be dealt with any way, packed like sardines, left helpless to be raped and murdered? Yes, some of these people have done unspeakable things, but they are bein…

Way I heard it described before is that in Europe we put people in jail AS punishment, in the US you put people in jail FOR punishment...

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#70

Post by Natsu »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #64
Natsu wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are two murderers who decided to kill each other. There are good reasons to leave people like that in actual solitary, so that they're unable to hurt others, but killing each other was never a human response. Nor, given their history, can I glibly conclude that prison made them that way, when all evidence is that the causal arrow points in the opposite direction. I may be somewhat biased. My mother was murdered…

I don't think most people are arguing that these two guys, or people like them, should have been released. The problem is that we're filling up the prisons with drug users and other non-violent offenders, and as a result everyone gets squeezed, from kids who got caught smoking pot right on up to cold-blooded murderers. Fix the overcrowding on the low end, and the high end has room to expand as needed without reducing…

I should hope at least that is the prevailing sentiment, but I've met enough people who told me otherwise to have reason to worry.
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