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The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

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Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#51

Post by 650REDHAIR »

chillwaves wrote: post #33
llamataboot wrote: post #15

Mass Incarceration is truly one of those things I can't think too much about or I just feel an unrelenting hopelessness and rage. It seems absolutely diabolical to me that in the United States we have simply taken away the humanity of so many people (with absolutely egregious racial and class disparities) in the name of keeping "us" "safer". Not only is it an absolute failure from a moral perspective, it doesn't work…

They are locking up drug users. There is a heroin epidemic in this country and they just lock them up when they need treatment. My friend was locked up, got out on bail and OD'd two nights ago. It didn't have to happen.

If you need anyone to listen to you vent I'm here for you.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#52

Post by im3w1l »

zanny wrote: post #47
justicezyx wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I guess I am too much a CS people. When I say "animal", I mean human as a kind of "animal". In terms of people killing people, that is a reflection of the "animal" side of human. Thus I use "animal". If you think I mean they are "animal", and I am not "animal"; and I am better then them. Sorry, I do not possess that prejudice. My question simply is: How we treat the "animal", which are people showing high-degree…

The original intent of incarceration was to remove those from society who we could not trust to peacefully participate in it. That intent is naturally lost today - the mass incarceration of drug users being only a portion of a larger pie of injustice and horror committed on a daily basis in the US that includes other atrocities such as police brutality and civil asset forfeiture. Obviously in cases where prisoners ki…

> The original intent of incarceration was to remove those from society who we could not trust to peacefully participate in it.

Do you have a source for that? The Code of Hammurabi seems to talk about imprisonment as the appropriate punishment for defaulting on your debt, and the ancient Greek seem to have used it for that reason as well.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#53

Post by zanny »

im3w1l wrote: post #52
zanny wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original intent of incarceration was to remove those from society who we could not trust to peacefully participate in it. That intent is naturally lost today - the mass incarceration of drug users being only a portion of a larger pie of injustice and horror committed on a daily basis in the US that includes other atrocities such as police brutality and civil asset forfeiture. Obviously in cases where prisoners ki…

> The original intent of incarceration was to remove those from society who we could not trust to peacefully participate in it. Do you have a source for that? The Code of Hammurabi seems to talk about imprisonment as the appropriate punishment for defaulting on your debt, and the ancient Greek seem to have used it for that reason as well.

Talking more about modern incarceration. Historically, banishment, exile, or execution were much simpler solutions to those who could not peacefully participate in society.

The intent of modern incarceration, at least in civilized nations, is the recognition (through study) that punishment is not rehabilitative or particularly beneficial for society as a whole. To use prison as a punishment can only act as a deterrent, not as a remedy.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#54

Post by eropple »

zanny wrote: post #45
stopinsanity16 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(US point-of-view): in case one ignores the blaring media headlines and the incessant political noise on TV and via unsolicited phone calls, I must inform that this is an election year in this country. There is still plenty of time to mobilize disenfranchised voters to perform a "regime change" to ensure that the people who gave us private jails, funding cuts for schools , increased corporate welfare, "war on drugs",…

The problem we are seeing this election cycle is the undemocratic consequence of first past the post. The American republic has degenerated so direly that, as is par for the course, the American people will once again be given only two choices for president (and likewise, at most two choices in every other ballot position they are eligible in this November, besides the most local of elections) of which very few non-h…

> Be it 7 "random" wins in Iowa

Programmer rails against randomness because it doesn't suit him. Film at 11.

> to past presidents using their authority and influence to shut down polling locations in Massachusetts for hours

Neither the Boston nor New Bedford locations at which Bill Clinton appeared (and I am setting aside whether it was right for Clinton to do so, because it appears to have not been illegal and the fine for such being all of $20 anyway) were closed at any point. Both remained accessible at all times.

But you know that, or you should if it matters to you.

> just this past week Arizona having its polling locations cut by 70% that produced waiting lines over five hours long

This is the result of the VRA being gutted by the Roberts Court and the Maricopa County government (hint: really really not Democrats) choosing not to establish nearly enough polling places.

But you know that, too. Or you should, if it matters to you. Because you are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#55

Post by mirimir »

imtringued wrote: post #11

The point of solitary confinement is to protect inmates from attacking each other. Putting two attackers into one cell makes the problem even worse. After the first inmate murder there is no consequence for further murder, you're there for the rest of your life anyway. It doesn't matter if you kill one or twenty cellmates. For the prison this is probably a boon because their overcrowding problem is "solving itself".

Huh? The point of solitary confinement is arguably to punish.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#56

Post by gozur88 »

rdtsc wrote: post #5

People talk about institutional evil. This is an example of it. You can almost trace their thinking "Oh, so solitary is bad now. We'll fix it. Put two people in a 10x4 cell. See, not solitary anymore, and we doubled the capacity too. Bonuses for everyone". Ideally you'd think those who made those decision would be disciplined, pensions would be cut, etc. But nothing like that is gonna happen. Even if the family wins…

>Oh, so solitary is bad now. We'll fix it. Put two people in a 10x4 cell. See, not solitary anymore, and we doubled the capacity too. Bonuses for everyone

I doubt that. The people running the system don't decide how many inmates they get or how many beds they have. They put people where they have to put them. And they have to deal with this kind of fallout. They're doubling up because they don't have room to do anything else.

There's probably a memo that went up the chain saying "This is a bad idea. We really shouldn't do it." If it made their jobs easier, guards would be perfectly happy with 1300 sq ft hot-tub-equipped town house cells. They're government employees, after all.

But nobody wants a prison in his town. For most people, inmates are out of sight, out of mind and that's the way they like it. That is the problem.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#57

Post by neffy »

joesmo wrote: post #14

I don't understand why our society thinks its ok to treat people this way just because they've been convicted of a crime. Being removed from society and put in jail IS the punishment. Why does society suddenly see these people as no longer human, trash that can be dealt with any way, packed like sardines, left helpless to be raped and murdered? Yes, some of these people have done unspeakable things, but they are bein…

Society doesn't think like that. What US society thought, was that everything should be determined by free markets.

This is what happens when you put the prison service out to the lowest bidder.

And lets not even get into the part where the private companies running the prisons now have a vested interest in hiring lobbyists to provoke tougher sentencing.

But perhaps it would be easier simply to stop at Society doesn't think.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#58

Post by vacri »

superuser2 wrote: post #25
rdtsc wrote: post #5

People talk about institutional evil. This is an example of it. You can almost trace their thinking "Oh, so solitary is bad now. We'll fix it. Put two people in a 10x4 cell. See, not solitary anymore, and we doubled the capacity too. Bonuses for everyone". Ideally you'd think those who made those decision would be disciplined, pensions would be cut, etc. But nothing like that is gonna happen. Even if the family wins…

This is also what happens when well-intentioned people are vastly more successful at fighting prison construction than fighting mass incarceration. Our prisons are routinely at 1.5x, 2x, 3x capacity. Being against the prison industrial complex feels good, but in doing so you become directly, personally responsible for the fact that there are now 3 people in a cell meant for one, people living on cots in a gymnasium w…

> but in doing so you become directly, personally responsible for the fact that there are now 3 people in a cell meant for one

I've not met anyone who is against prison construction that is not also against long sentences and against sentences for trivial crap. It's the state's half-arsed job that's responsible, not the people who are trying to make the place better.

We definitely shouldn't be building prisons just for capacity, because then when they are slated to close, it become another political football: "jobs", "soft on crime", so on and so forth. The solution is to stop jailing people to such a ridiculous degree - in the US it's basically j-curved since the '90s.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#59

Post by trhway »

justicezyx wrote: post #30
whiddershins wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All humans are capable of horrific acts. It is a part of our humanity, we are apex predators who organize socially. The evolved algorithm in our brain that manages that dissonance is extremely complex and will necessarily fail at times. We can't tolerate or condone antisocial behavior, but it is a mistake to feel safe in the thought "we" are better than "them." We are they, they are we.

Hmm, I guess I am too much a CS people. When I say "animal", I mean human as a kind of "animal". In terms of people killing people, that is a reflection of the "animal" side of human. Thus I use "animal". If you think I mean they are "animal", and I am not "animal"; and I am better then them. Sorry, I do not possess that prejudice. My question simply is: How we treat the "animal", which are people showing high-degree…

i wonder why "animal" surfaced here at all. Animals kill for food or self-defense, it isn't a voluntary act, it is what they have to do. Killing for other reasons, voluntary killings, murders - it is all almost exclusively human trait. In particular, animals don't do murders, it is human invention.
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