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The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

themarshallproject.org

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Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#31

Post by chillwaves »

Nutmog wrote: post #26
rdtsc wrote: post #5

People talk about institutional evil. This is an example of it. You can almost trace their thinking "Oh, so solitary is bad now. We'll fix it. Put two people in a 10x4 cell. See, not solitary anymore, and we doubled the capacity too. Bonuses for everyone". Ideally you'd think those who made those decision would be disciplined, pensions would be cut, etc. But nothing like that is gonna happen. Even if the family wins…

It's fair for taxpayers to pay for it because they're also the voters who voted for the system. Most people actually want more horrible prisons, they want solitary confinement, they want prisoners to kill each other, they want long sentences. That's why it happens. So isn't it quite reasonable to push the cost back onto those people when they get sued?

To me a more accurate statement would be, per your response, that the system is failing at multiple levels.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#32

Post by justicezyx »

rbobby wrote: post #9
justicezyx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How we should treat the "animal" that kill people then?

Probably start by not calling them an animal? Dehumanizing someone is probably step 1 on the road mistreating them.

No, by "animal" I mean human as "animal". Not they are animal and I am not.

We are animal.

And some of us has more "animal" side of behavior. That's it. Please do not misrepresent my statement...

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#33

Post by chillwaves »

llamataboot wrote: post #15

Mass Incarceration is truly one of those things I can't think too much about or I just feel an unrelenting hopelessness and rage. It seems absolutely diabolical to me that in the United States we have simply taken away the humanity of so many people (with absolutely egregious racial and class disparities) in the name of keeping "us" "safer". Not only is it an absolute failure from a moral perspective, it doesn't work…

They are locking up drug users. There is a heroin epidemic in this country and they just lock them up when they need treatment. My friend was locked up, got out on bail and OD'd two nights ago. It didn't have to happen.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#34

Post by whiddershins »

ams6110 wrote: post #29
whiddershins wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All humans are capable of horrific acts. It is a part of our humanity, we are apex predators who organize socially. The evolved algorithm in our brain that manages that dissonance is extremely complex and will necessarily fail at times. We can't tolerate or condone antisocial behavior, but it is a mistake to feel safe in the thought "we" are better than "them." We are they, they are we.

No, sorry. Some people kill or viciously assault other people, while most people don't. There's not a moral equivalence there. That said, I do think that the conditions described in the article constitute cruel and unusual punishment, at least by today's standards. I'm not sure what the framers had in mind; I'm sure 18th century prisons were not rose gardens either.

I heartily recommend "Why We Snap"

http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Snap-Understanding-Circuit-eboo...

and although a boring read, "Sex and War"

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-War-Biology-Explains-Terrorism-ebo...

for a different perspective on your statements. The violent impulse is probably available to all humans, and it is plausible to say that all humans under the right circumstances can manifest extreme violence.

So it becomes details. How are the various impulses moderated under various conditions. It is the precise opposite of black and white, in my opinion.

edit: I am not excusing violence or advocating we tolerate antisocial behavior. I am urging compassion and empathy for people whose brains have made one or more decisions devastatingly incorrectly as a result of what may be an extremely tiny variation in programming, or an edge case that caused their brains to make the wrong decision.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#35

Post by mirimir »

chillwaves wrote: post #33
llamataboot wrote: post #15

Mass Incarceration is truly one of those things I can't think too much about or I just feel an unrelenting hopelessness and rage. It seems absolutely diabolical to me that in the United States we have simply taken away the humanity of so many people (with absolutely egregious racial and class disparities) in the name of keeping "us" "safer". Not only is it an absolute failure from a moral perspective, it doesn't work…

They are locking up drug users. There is a heroin epidemic in this country and they just lock them up when they need treatment. My friend was locked up, got out on bail and OD'd two nights ago. It didn't have to happen.

This!

It's plainly the Drug War that's filled prisons.

Sorry about your friend :(

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#36

Post by superuser2 »

chillwaves wrote: post #31
Nutmog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fair for taxpayers to pay for it because they're also the voters who voted for the system. Most people actually want more horrible prisons, they want solitary confinement, they want prisoners to kill each other, they want long sentences. That's why it happens. So isn't it quite reasonable to push the cost back onto those people when they get sued?

To me a more accurate statement would be, per your response, that the system is failing at multiple levels.

The system isn't failing - it's working exactly how the people who control it (the voting public) want it to. Out of sight, out of mind, cheap. The only way the prison system could be "failing" in the eyes of the electorate is if there were a lot of escapes, and there aren't.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#37

Post by gnaritas »

superuser2 wrote: post #25
rdtsc wrote: post #5

People talk about institutional evil. This is an example of it. You can almost trace their thinking "Oh, so solitary is bad now. We'll fix it. Put two people in a 10x4 cell. See, not solitary anymore, and we doubled the capacity too. Bonuses for everyone". Ideally you'd think those who made those decision would be disciplined, pensions would be cut, etc. But nothing like that is gonna happen. Even if the family wins…

This is also what happens when well-intentioned people are vastly more successful at fighting prison construction than fighting mass incarceration. Our prisons are routinely at 1.5x, 2x, 3x capacity. Being against the prison industrial complex feels good, but in doing so you become directly, personally responsible for the fact that there are now 3 people in a cell meant for one, people living on cots in a gymnasium w…

There's a simple solution to that, set people free. We don't need to build more prisons, we already imprison more of our population than any other country in the world, we have too many prisons and too many people in them. We need to imprison less people. Release all inmates who committed victim-less crimes, if more room is needed, release all inmates who committed non violent crimes-there are better ways to deal with them than prison. Prison should be for violent criminals only. Release all drug users, release all drug pushers, none of those people belong in jail.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#38

Post by Karunamon »

superuser2 wrote: post #25
rdtsc wrote: post #5

People talk about institutional evil. This is an example of it. You can almost trace their thinking "Oh, so solitary is bad now. We'll fix it. Put two people in a 10x4 cell. See, not solitary anymore, and we doubled the capacity too. Bonuses for everyone". Ideally you'd think those who made those decision would be disciplined, pensions would be cut, etc. But nothing like that is gonna happen. Even if the family wins…

This is also what happens when well-intentioned people are vastly more successful at fighting prison construction than fighting mass incarceration. Our prisons are routinely at 1.5x, 2x, 3x capacity. Being against the prison industrial complex feels good, but in doing so you become directly, personally responsible for the fact that there are now 3 people in a cell meant for one, people living on cots in a gymnasium w…

Thought experiment:

What would happen if the laws were amended so that, should someone be sentenced to prison time, and all prisons within a reasonable radius are at capacity, that either the person with the lowest amount of time to serve in that prison (barring violent offenses) is automatically set free, or the sentence is commuted to probation or such?

There's an argument to be made here that cramming two people into a parking-space-sized cell is unconstitutionally cruel and unusual, so the state really should have to decide if placing Joe Potsmoker in for a year is worth releasing Bill Burgalar five years early. Just saying "fuck it, throw 'em all in" shouldn't be an option.

(This is assuming that prison has any reformative value at all, of course...)

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#39

Post by brownbat »

mirimir wrote: post #35
chillwaves wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are locking up drug users. There is a heroin epidemic in this country and they just lock them up when they need treatment. My friend was locked up, got out on bail and OD'd two nights ago. It didn't have to happen.

This! It's plainly the Drug War that's filled prisons. Sorry about your friend :(

Well, prison populations are actually really complicated.

There's a good piece at The Marshall Project discussing this, with an interesting interactive that illustrates how difficult it would be to dramatically reduce the prison population by only focusing on nonviolent drug offenders:

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/03/04/how-to-cut-the...

The drug war was a massive overreach. It's not 100% of the overcrowded prisons problem though, they're related but somewhat independent challenges.

Re: The Deadly Consequences of Solitary with a Cellmate

#40

Post by superuser2 »

Karunamon wrote: post #38
superuser2 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also what happens when well-intentioned people are vastly more successful at fighting prison construction than fighting mass incarceration. Our prisons are routinely at 1.5x, 2x, 3x capacity. Being against the prison industrial complex feels good, but in doing so you become directly, personally responsible for the fact that there are now 3 people in a cell meant for one, people living on cots in a gymnasium w…

Thought experiment: What would happen if the laws were amended so that, should someone be sentenced to prison time, and all prisons within a reasonable radius are at capacity, that either the person with the lowest amount of time to serve in that prison (barring violent offenses) is automatically set free, or the sentence is commuted to probation or such? There's an argument to be made here that cramming two people i…

This happens. Not on a 1:1 basis, but early release to alleviate overcrowding somewhat is not unheard of.

The careers of the politicians responsible are eviscerated, spectacularly, when the people they released go on to commit violent crimes.

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