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Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

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Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#11

Post by mattbowen »

I've been shifting a bunch of data analysis out of spreadsheets (and some adhoc SQL) to Jupyter/Pandas, and we've found some unexpected tradeoffs on both sides.

The lack of testability and version control (and really, long-term maintainability) is what drove us out of spreadsheets into Jupyter. We've found though that the workflow in Jupyter, even with Pandas, is not great for exploring and getting a feel for data --- we end up missing the very quick "poking around" you can do in excel or in a good sql client.

I'd have to use Stencila more to know if it strikes the right balance for the kind of analysis work I do, but I'm glad to see such a thoughtful attempt to try a new balance.

Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#12

Post by thenipper »

ebiester wrote: post #5
wrong_variable wrote: post #2

Spreadsheets are optimized for data entry. Try entering CVS data manually using a text editor. Without Excel there would be no way for my sales/marketing team to give me valuable data to process at the backend. If you have been doing programming in excel for the past 20 years then you are simply a fool - sorry.

You would be surprised how many people have done this. The average office worker doesn't have a development environment on their computer, but they have Excel, and they have a coworker who was a whiz who said, "Did you know you could do this?" They just kept automating task after task, silently, without the IT department ever knowing. 90% of them never thought of it as coding, and 10% realized they could make more mo…

Amen.

I've done this a lot. I've always programmed but I'd say the most used things I've ever done are Excel workbooks. It's great, you don't really have to worry too much about compatibility. You're never like hey install this program so you can use this other program. I don't have to make a 'ui'.

Sure they're prone to breakage, they're kind of fiddly and inelegant. But they work and get the work done which is what I need to do at the end of the day.

Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#13

Post by agumonkey »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #4

Lotus 1-2-3 got people to use computers. One could argue that spreadsheets are the single biggest business innovation of the late 20th century. I don't think they're going away that easily. I know people who type whole letters in Excel. I know an accountant in particular who I showed how to use MS Word for writing letters, but he prefers Excel. He writes full documents in Excel, prints them out and mails them. Laugh…

in win95 days, Winword.exe wasn't particularly stable, nor ergonomically consistent. I quickly resorted to type documents in Excel, abusing table layout ala html4 days. A bit heavy but clear and solid. Excel was a workhorse.

Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#14

Post by sevensor »

luso_brazilian wrote: post #6

OT and just my opinion: it seems to exists an unfortunate trend in the promotion of new ideas where, instead of simply exposing the virtues of the idea on its own, it first needs to knock down the (proven and world adopted) predecessor as something unpolished, unplanned, untested and, in general, a bad idea from the start. Compare this trend, for instance, with the first Linux announcement by Linus Torvalds [1] below…

The article itself is much more positive on spreadsheets than the headline -- it suggests improvements to the underlying data / computational model while preserving the interface.

And it's about time somebody said something nice about spreadsheets. Go to your average (non-software) engineer and ask to see an engineering model. Chances are, it's in Excel. It's less buggy than you expect, because your average engineer is going to notice and fix nonsensical results. Unlike the scientists the author is talking about, your average engineer is looking at very similar data from day to day and is attuned to anomalous behavior.

I think there's a lot of room for a tool like the one described by the article that includes built-in validation and is git-friendly. However, given the overwhelming dominance of Excel, it's going to have to integrate with, rather than replace Excel.

Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#15

Post by giardini »

I think the more usual form of that phrase is "Spreadsheets are dead, long live spreadsheets!". And that captures the truth of the situation better.

Despite all the known weaknesses of spreadsheets, it is sheer hubris to believe that they will be supplanted by reactive programming (or databases, or anything else for that matter). It seems that users will give up their spreadsheets only when they are pried from their cold, dead hands.

European Spreadsheet Risks Interest Group has some great links to articles about the pros/cons/whattodo of spreadsheets: http://www.eusprig.org/

Jocelyn Ireson-Paine has done lots of work with spreadsheets and their problems. Lots of links to spreadsheet sites from there: http://www.j-paine.org/

Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#16

Post by agumonkey »

wrong_variable wrote: post #2

Spreadsheets are optimized for data entry. Try entering CVS data manually using a text editor. Without Excel there would be no way for my sales/marketing team to give me valuable data to process at the backend. If you have been doing programming in excel for the past 20 years then you are simply a fool - sorry.

I remember tweaking Excel input 'system' and decorate a spreadsheet with additional hints and checks so I can go furiously fast on a very large input-operator level task.

There's potential here.

Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#17

Post by WorldMaker »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #4

Lotus 1-2-3 got people to use computers. One could argue that spreadsheets are the single biggest business innovation of the late 20th century. I don't think they're going away that easily. I know people who type whole letters in Excel. I know an accountant in particular who I showed how to use MS Word for writing letters, but he prefers Excel. He writes full documents in Excel, prints them out and mails them. Laugh…

I've met graphic designers and Engineers who use Excel as a weird Illustrator/Paint and/or Visio canvas.

Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#18

Post by koz1000 »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #4

Lotus 1-2-3 got people to use computers. One could argue that spreadsheets are the single biggest business innovation of the late 20th century. I don't think they're going away that easily. I know people who type whole letters in Excel. I know an accountant in particular who I showed how to use MS Word for writing letters, but he prefers Excel. He writes full documents in Excel, prints them out and mails them. Laugh…

Sooner or later, all project management ends up in Excel. Doesn't matter what ticket or tracking tool you've paid for.

Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#19

Post by nokome »

Hey, Stencila developer here. Thanks to the original poster for sharing the link and for all the interest. Unfortunately, the site is not handling all that interest too well (R session hosting instances filling up, timeouts,...). I'm working on it but please bear with me while I try to stabilize things.

Re: Stencila – Spreadsheet-like live reactive programming environment

#20

Post by psuter »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #4

Lotus 1-2-3 got people to use computers. One could argue that spreadsheets are the single biggest business innovation of the late 20th century. I don't think they're going away that easily. I know people who type whole letters in Excel. I know an accountant in particular who I showed how to use MS Word for writing letters, but he prefers Excel. He writes full documents in Excel, prints them out and mails them. Laugh…

...and painters too! http://www.spoon-tamago.com/2013/05/28/tatsuo-horiuchi-excel...
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