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School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

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Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#111

Post by dnsworks »

lambda wrote: post #100
anamax wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as there is no indication that there were sexual motives, than no accusations of sexual motives should be made. That's not how child porn laws work. Laws should always be enforced most harshly against govt agents and folks who actually advocate the laws in question. Govt employment is not a right and if someone is unwilling to accept heightened scrutiny, they can work for someone who is willing to accomodat…

No, laws should be applied equally to everyone. You should not be punished more harshly because you are a "government agent." What does your postal clerk have to do with some idiot congressman who passed too strict a law on child porn?

Why? Crimes against government agents are prosecuted far more severely than crimes against the common man. If you rob a post office at gunpoint, it's a federal felony, with more extreme punishments than if you rob a corner store at gunpoint. The law singles out government employees as being more important than the common man in terms of protection.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#112

Post by wtallis »

lambda wrote: post #100
anamax wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as there is no indication that there were sexual motives, than no accusations of sexual motives should be made. That's not how child porn laws work. Laws should always be enforced most harshly against govt agents and folks who actually advocate the laws in question. Govt employment is not a right and if someone is unwilling to accept heightened scrutiny, they can work for someone who is willing to accomodat…

No, laws should be applied equally to everyone. You should not be punished more harshly because you are a "government agent." What does your postal clerk have to do with some idiot congressman who passed too strict a law on child porn?

Postal workers shouldn't necessarily be blamed for pornography laws, but that doesn't mean government agents should be treated equally.

Highway patrol officers who break traffic laws without using lights and sirens should be punished more severely than a first-time offender who is a normal citizen. Cops who abuse their power need to serve prison time.

With great power comes great responsibility.

We give our public school teachers a lot of power over the lives of our kids, by entrusting our kids to them for several hours a day. If they abuse the public trust, the potential for damage is much higher, and the punishment should be correspondingly more severe.

If we let our schools enact zero-tolerance policies for punishing our kids, we have the right to enact zero-tolerance laws for them f*ing with our kids' lives.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#113

Post by jules »

steveklabnik wrote: post #29
ErrantX wrote: post #22

The real question is: where is the criminal investigation? This breaks so many laws it's not funny. And the kid originally being disciplined at school for something he did at home . It's the first time for a while news like this has made me feel physically sick! Lock them up :(

> And the kid originally being disciplined at school for something he did at home. This is pretty standard practice. Schools have all kinds of 'code of conduct' things that can get you in trouble for things that didn't happen on school grounds.

> things that can get you in trouble for things that didn't happen on school grounds

What?! There is no way that kind of policy would be tolerated here. What is the logic behind this?

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#114

Post by obsaysditto »

From the Philadelphia Inquirer: "This is the first we have heard of this lawsuit being filed and the plaintiff's allegations," he said today. "However, we can categorically state that we are - and have always been - committed to protecting the privacy of our students."

"Our district was one of the first to provide free laptops to all of our high school students," Young said. "This initiative has been incredibly successful and well received in our school community."

"We have referred this matter to our attorneys for appropriate legal action and plan to communicate with parents and students with more information as it becomes available."

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20100218_Suit__Sc...

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#115

Post by protomyth »

cduan wrote: post #59
Daniel_Newby wrote: post #5

If this violated child pornography laws, we will get the remarkable outcome that a school system is not allowed within 2500 feet of a school. So it's not all bad!

There doesn't appear to be a claim in the complaint regarding any child pornography laws yet. But who knows--that may change if new photos turn up during discovery. Here's some thoughts on the Fourth Amendment illegal search claim, at least: There is this 2001 case, Kyllo v. United States, that held it illegal for the police to use a thermal scanner to detect heat lamps in a guy's house (the heat lamps being used to…

There is a small sentence at the bottom of the complaint that says they will amend if any qualifying picts / information is produced.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#116

Post by DanielBMarkham »

obsaysditto wrote: post #114

From the Philadelphia Inquirer: "This is the first we have heard of this lawsuit being filed and the plaintiff's allegations," he said today. "However, we can categorically state that we are - and have always been - committed to protecting the privacy of our students." "Our district was one of the first to provide free laptops to all of our high school students," Young said. "This initiative has been incredibly succe…

On one hand I really hope the original story is false/overblown, like perhaps the kid was using his webcam in a public setting online and the administrators were simply monitoring. (Which is weird, but not as weird as full-control spying)

On the other hand, if it turns out that the story is overblown, I am getting really, really, really, really tired of web outlets yanking my libertarian chain. True abuse needs to be confronted. If this is baseless rumor or purposeful link-baiting, it does more to hurt privacy (by making people used to such accusations) than the administrators ever may have done.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#117

Post by rdtsc »

olefoo wrote: post #98
rdtsc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the courts take the approach that the school is 'in loco parentis' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis ), that is they have similar rights to when the kids are under their supervision. They can claim that since laptops are not tracked via GPS so it is hard to know where the kids are (at home or at school). So they can just brush this off as an 'oops' or demand that all laptops have tracking chips i…

And where was the IT leader for the school in all of this? This is where professional responsibility has to come into play. He or she has a responsibility to be aware of what's right and wrong, and installing and activating remote spycam software is so very definitely wrong; I don't even have the words.

It is pointless to seek professional responsibity among IT staff when the people who hired them don't have any. Anyone having responsability wouldn't have lasted there anyway.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#118

Post by protomyth »

aplusbi wrote: post #68
ErrantX wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reople have been arrested for having malware download child porn without the user's authorization or knowledge Do you have a citation for that, out of interest. It's considered something of a myth within LE and I wasn't aware a case like that actually existed.

Here is one such case: http://www.scmagazineus.com/malware-to-blame-for-porn-on-sta... I also recall a case of a teacher whose school computer had malware that ended up displaying porn in the classroom who was arrested and faced up to 40 years in jail. I'm pretty sure she was acquitted.

If I remember right, she was forced to give up her teacher's license.

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#119

Post by nfnaaron »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #101
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #96

Speaking of school's control and observation of kids not on their premises, wasn't there a case a while back where a kid skipped school and later appeared on TV holding a "Bush sucks!" protest sign? My memory is fuzzy on this, but it seems like the courts upheld the right of the school to punish the kid? Anybody got a link for that case? Extrapolating from what I don't know into things I can't even speculate on (I lo…

Found it -- it was the kid who displayed the sign "Bong hits for Jesus" and the school administrators were supported in suppressing free speech at a school-sponsored event. I love that kid! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick Also for those interested in learning more about the control schools have over free speech, here's a great PDF http://breitlinks.com/freespeechpdf/speech.pdf I guess the point I was…

If a district employee came home with the student, while I was there, with my permission, and helped him or observed his work, I'd be OK with that. Again, with my permission and knowledge.

If the same employee was peeking through the window ...

Re: School used student laptop webcams to spy on them at school and home

#120

Post by CWuestefeld »

dpatru wrote: post #103
CWuestefeld wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is this 2001 case, Kyllo v. United States, that held it illegal for the police to use a thermal scanner to detect heat lamps I don't think that's precisely correct. It's not illegal -- the cops aren't going to be sent to jail. It just makes the evidence inadmissible. And that subtlety makes all the difference in this application.

An unlawful search is illegal. Whether the cop go to jail depends on if they're convicted of a criminal law. Usually an illegal search is brought up as a defense by the person who was searched and is now being charged with evidence obtained in the search. The issue in these cases is whether the fruits of the illegal search should be used against the person who was searched. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusion…

An unlawful search is illegal. Whether the cop go to jail depends on if they're convicted of a criminal law.

As far as I'm aware this never happens, or at least I've never heard of it. But then, IANAL.

Not that I disbelieve you, but I'm curious. Can you cite some real-life cases where officers that poked their noses where they ought not have later been prosecuted and actually been punished? My guess is that they'll be protected by qualified immunity. (but then, that immunity probably isn't available in the case at hand)

Anecdote: I have a friend who was handing out pamphlets in front of the post office on Tax Day. He was arrested and later sued for 1st Amendment violations. He won his case against the town, but the prosecution against the officers failed because they thought they were doing the right thing (with no acknowledgment of the fact that their job makes it critical for them to have this knowledge).

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