Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#101

Post by slantyyz » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:46 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #96

slantyyz wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Surely true, phone hardware was quite 'limited' at first Well here's my problem with that argument. The 3G, 4 and iPad 1 were quite fast until the bloated OS upgrades started coming out. The one thing that would keep me from being bitter is if Apple offered an easy way to downgrade to the original OS version of each one. I don't run a lot of apps. The most important apps to me are the ones that come with the phone…

True, but I can also understand how for some time iPad 1 level hardware was just a bit too limiting. Now the bloated upgrades, as I said, did also help forcing users to "want" the new one more. The thing that saddens me is that, business will always do that, it's the survival gene by making profit. On the other hand we could have nice open source, legit good software layers but it just doesn't happen the right way on…

>> Now the bloated upgrades, as I said, did also help forcing users to "want" the new one more.

My experience after switching to Android is not that though. Most of the major releases, including the upcoming N, offer performance improvements.

Granted, I don't know what that says about the code base, whether it was already so vastly inefficient that they find tons of room for improvements or whatnot, but it's definitely a refreshing change from iOS for me.

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#102

Post by detaro » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:47 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #15

Yes there are things that are sad about it. A 5-year-old PC is probably not running a recent version of Windows, and has a higher likelihood of being compromised. And if a person wants a new computer but can't afford it, that is sad too. That said, it was an obviously stupid stat for Schiller to cite. But now we're going to be subjected to a long series of Apple-bashing articles that overreach in the opposite directi…

>A 5-year-old PC is probably not running a recent version of Windows,

Windows 7 came out 7 years ago, is still reasonably supported, and you get a free upgrade to Windows 10 for it.

> And if a person wants a new computer but can't afford it, that is sad too.

And an iPad Pro for 600$-1200$ is very likely not the answer for them.

I agree, it's a lot of talk about a single stupid statement, but I think it is a really stupid statement, on multiple levels.

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#103

Post by secstate » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:48 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #96

slantyyz wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Surely true, phone hardware was quite 'limited' at first Well here's my problem with that argument. The 3G, 4 and iPad 1 were quite fast until the bloated OS upgrades started coming out. The one thing that would keep me from being bitter is if Apple offered an easy way to downgrade to the original OS version of each one. I don't run a lot of apps. The most important apps to me are the ones that come with the phone…

True, but I can also understand how for some time iPad 1 level hardware was just a bit too limiting. Now the bloated upgrades, as I said, did also help forcing users to "want" the new one more. The thing that saddens me is that, business will always do that, it's the survival gene by making profit. On the other hand we could have nice open source, legit good software layers but it just doesn't happen the right way on…

All valid points, but it hasn't always been this way. There is a model for profitably and sustainably running a business that builds solid products and then services them.

We often act as though the world we live in is the only way things could have possibly proceeded, but after WW2 U.S. manufacturing invented the idea of the consumer to cope with manufacturing capacity built up during war time.

We are still effectively living in a manufacturing boom time created by a war machine.

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#104

Post by Pengwin » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:48 PM UTC

slantyyz wrote: post #86

Spooky23 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You represent the 5% of PC consumers. The average person goes to Walmart/Bestbuy/BJ's/Staples and spends $475 on some shitbox laptop. The 25th percentile user (ie. millions of people) probably spent $275-325. That average person who bought that average PC in 2011 has an aging HP/Dell/Asus laptop with a failing battery, $30 Celeron or AMD processor, 2GB memory, integrated graphics, a 500GB 5400rpm disk and integrated…

I still have my 2008 plastic Macbook refurb that I still use to browse the web. I had the pre-release Win 10/64 on it for a while, and it actually ran faster than OSX did on that machine (in my experience, Windows runs faster on Mac than OSX itself, but ymmv). And keep in mind that my Macbook pretty much got left behind by OSX after Lion.

I was reasonably happy on my bosses plastic Macbook until OSX stopped supporting them, and I need xCode for my job.

I now have his non retina Macbook pro to compile apps, and i fear the day that stops working too.

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#105

Post by hellbanner » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:54 PM UTC

dpweb wrote: post #75

mikehearn wrote: post #36

I interpreted that comment as a jab at the PC industry. The implication being that in the last 5+ years the PC industry has failed to offer 600 million users a compelling reason to upgrade. Isn't that the correct interpretation, considering the whole point of bringing that up is because they're positioning a new device intended to replace the PC? I seriously doubt it's intended to mean (to quote the article) "LOL poo…

Just bought a like-new PC on ebay for $200. It's not about being poor because anyone who says they can't scrape up $200 if they had to, is lying to you. It's the shocking fact that (especially if cash strapped) you can live your life, without constantly buying more and newer things. Of course Apple's stance is, you must buy our new products every year. But I can get on Facebook and email and whatever else on my $200…

$200? That's a lot of money for many people.

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#106

Post by agumonkey » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

slantyyz wrote: post #101

agumonkey wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but I can also understand how for some time iPad 1 level hardware was just a bit too limiting. Now the bloated upgrades, as I said, did also help forcing users to "want" the new one more. The thing that saddens me is that, business will always do that, it's the survival gene by making profit. On the other hand we could have nice open source, legit good software layers but it just doesn't happen the right way on…

>> Now the bloated upgrades, as I said, did also help forcing users to "want" the new one more. My experience after switching to Android is not that though. Most of the major releases, including the upcoming N, offer performance improvements. Granted, I don't know what that says about the code base, whether it was already so vastly inefficient that they find tons of room for improvements or whatnot, but it's definite…

True, after version 7 iOS became too demanding. Ironically I had much love for first OSX releases that got better even on 1st gen iMac until 10.5 I believe. Apple put that gene to rest ..

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#107

Post by cheald » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #89

mikehearn wrote: post #36

I interpreted that comment as a jab at the PC industry. The implication being that in the last 5+ years the PC industry has failed to offer 600 million users a compelling reason to upgrade. Isn't that the correct interpretation, considering the whole point of bringing that up is because they're positioning a new device intended to replace the PC? I seriously doubt it's intended to mean (to quote the article) "LOL poo…

Yup. Clock-for-clock, Skylake is about 10-20% faster than Sandy Bridge, IPC improvements have been 4 GHz, which is extremely reasonable, then it keeps up just fine with a Skylake in most tasks. CPU performance is largely "good enough" for most users. OS bloat has finally stopped: Win8.1 is just as fast as Win7 (and is more stable) and Win10 is faster and skinnier. Most users don't do anything intensive and probably w…

> Yup. Clock-for-clock, Skylake is about 10-20% faster than Sandy Bridge

Sorry, can you elaborate on this? Is Skylake somehow performing multiple instructions per core per clock cycle somehow?

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#108

Post by secstate » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

tfandango wrote: post #100

I'm a little sour on Apple. They say their products are rugged and "built to last", but an iPad is mostly glass which you need to encase in a giant rubber protective case if you don't want the screen shattered. Even then they are easy to break and very costly to fix, to the point now where it barely makes sense to fix it over replace it. Self-Repair is less expensive but so far I'm 50/50 on successes. I would say the…

The killer part is that it's only expensive to repair because Apple has opted not to streamline a repair pipeline. There is absolutely no way a digitizer glued to a piece of glass costs $500 otherwise they'd never make another iPad.

But if they price the part hideously expensively it makes buying a new one a no-brainer. Working in a school for a few years, I was amazed how easily and inexpensively I could replace screens and memory on 2008-era white macbooks when I had access to school channels for parts priced at cost (or close enough). I think we had access to those channels as a stipulation in a state contract to buy assloads of those machines for every kid in the state.

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#109

Post by existencebox » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

Perhaps I have some wires crossed from too much time as a sysadmin, but I take a 5 year old (+) PC (or any machine, really) as a mark of pride, not any bit of shame whatsoever. It speaks to a high degree of reliability which often speaks well of the operator (even if just "choosing robust hardware" is a component of this)

Some stories to add some color to this: Ran a very primitive file sharing server for my university on a dual P(2 or 3, don't quite remember) machine that was probably around a decade old by the time they finally ended up retiring it. My home fileserver is a ~10 TB 4U monster, running on (conveniently) 5 year old hardware and very boring FBSD. Outside of moving apartments, it has not had unplanned downtime once, I will continue using it as long as this is true and would be sad if I didn't get another good few years out of it.

I _WISH_ I could get the same lifetime out of desktop PCs but I tend to find assorted parts failing at an asymptotic rate around 3-5 years. The world in which we all use <5 year old hardware is a sad one, to be avoided, to my eyes. (To clarify, I don't mean this in any luddite sense, I don't believe tech should stop moving forward, but I long for more robust products with longer viable lifespans, such that one can make a choice to upgrade rather than waiting for the inevitable.)

Re: Dear Apple, there’s nothing ‘really sad’ about using a 5-year-old PC

#110

Post by cookiemonsta » Wed, Mar 23, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

specialp wrote: post #79

It is ironic that Apple is mentioning this as I believe this is going to spell the end of their era of massive profits. Phones now are getting to the state where much like PCs, the older phone is good enough, and the new phone is not substantially better. There will always be people buying a phone for .2ghz more CPU or some slightly higher res screen, but the days of rapid evolution of mobile devices are over, and Ap…

But with new OS versions, older phones quickly start to show their age. An iphone 4 or iphone 4s on the latest version of iOS it supports is really sluggish and slow (and no easy way to put iOS6/7 back on it)