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Do We Still Need Prisons?

volteface.me

81–90 of 105 posts

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#81
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think someone like Madoff deserves the worst punishment we have available for current non-violent offenders? He destroyed thousands of lives, ruined their savings and their ability to retire. Many people will probably have a far worse quality end of life experience because of him. The opportunities for the children of his victims is much diminished. It was an incredibly damaging crime and he's in prison rig…

>You don't think someone like Madoff deserves the worst punishment we have available for current non-violent offenders? No, no--I am merely asking and want to know the purpose of these long terms. I don't believe I mentioned Madoff in particular but in general with respect to things like drug distribution, computer hacking, etc. As I said in the beginning, I believe there is some price to be paid. My confusion is why…

You didn't at all offend me, I was just making a counter-argument. I also am not well informed on these things.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#82
post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

I think it's not about what is the worst, but about what is necessary. Ultimately, the idea is that there are some basic rules without which the society can not perform. The exact rules vary by culture, but in a Western culture they usually include murdering people, violating property rights, causing substantial bodily and emotional harm, defrauding or defaming someone, etc.

Now, one has to admit our current legal system has gone way beyond that and subverted criminal justice system from "absolute necessities" to "things I love to force other people to do because I think they should be doing those things and too stupid to realize it" - and so we now prosecute people for setting wrong kind of plant on fire and inhaling the smoke, or for cutting other person's hair without consent of government employee, or for listening to a musical tune without paying to some corporation that is considering "owning" it, or for using the idea because somebody else thought about similar idea before and asked government employee to give them "ownership" of it. And so on.

This all looks like abuse, but there's still the original idea behind it - the idea that there are some necessities underlying working society, and these necessities must be enforced. Not because each violation causes grave harm - but because multiple violations would snowball into set of consequences that would make our society very hard to live in.

So if we go to the mugging example, let's assume we say "mugging is no problem, the police should not care about it, there's no harm done, especially compared to what Wall Street bankers are doing". Let's ignore even the facts that people are grievously hurt or murdered in muggings. But even beyond that - what happens if we declare free mugging season?

First of all, more muggings - especially from people that are physically strong, imposing and have no moral problems with it. Then, people that are not so strong would try to defend themselves - e.g. by arming themselves. Then, muggers would arm themselves too, because they found the source of cheap income and are not going to give it up. Then you have two outcomes possible - either the non-muggers succeed, individually or collectively, in raising the potential price per mugging to level so high it's not worth it (i.e. if you are going to end up dead in 1/3 of mugging attempts, your mugging career is not going to be long) or you have situation where you're living in a warzone. Which some people learned to survive in, but would you want to get into such situation?

In either case situation did not exactly improve - in the first case, you just create the police by other name, and probably more harsh to muggers than any current one (vigilantes have little use for Miranda rights and competitive trials) , in the second you get dramatic reduction in quality of life.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#83

Spoken like a truly out of touch academic. Here's an incident that took place last week in a town near me: A man with a beer and a condom approached a random couple on the sidewalk and declared his intention to have sex with the woman. When she declined, two of his brothers and a fourth man appeared from behind a bush, beat the man into submission and dragged the woman back to their apartment. They barricaded the doo…

Agreed, I think the big problem here is that we have "soft-drug offenders", and not only that, but we have lots of them - more than rapists. This erodes the public image of what "criminal" is - if we look at random criminal and it's a pothead that just wanted to get a little high without harming anybody, then the natural question people ask is "do we really need to be that harsh on that?" And the answer is no. Because he's not a criminal, and only idiotic laws make him a criminal. But the harm is done because the idea of "criminal" is now confused - are we talking about rapists? Are we talking about murderers? Are we talking about potheads and public drinkers? Do we want to be hard on them or soft on them? The only way to untangle the mess is to get people that we don't really need to prosecute out of criminal system altogether.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#84
post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

These examples (mugging, burglary) are serious crimes that have a lasting impact on most people. In addition, a place where mugging and burglary is happening without consequence has a really negative effect on the people there. Ask a black mother whose kids live in fear whether that guy who is mugging, robbing and breaking and entering belongs in jail.

The punitive nature of arrest and jail makes the cost/benefit less attractive of capture looks like a high risk. (Example: NYC)

We don't jail cheating spouses because society learned that moral turpitude as a crime creates other problems that society is struggling to move past.

We don't effectively police many categories of white collar crime because the risk of capture is infinitesimal.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#85
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you got downvoted, I'm pretty left wing but people who pull the kind of shit in that story really do belong in prison, it doesn't have to be a harsh american-style prison but it has to be secure, some people just shouldn't be in society because of the threat they pose to the rights of others. It's not just about punishment it's about protecting law-abiding members of society.

There are still crimes where the punishment should be a short rope and a tall tree. Forty years of a roof over your head, a bed to sleep in, and three squares a day is insane.

Death is irreversible. Imprisonment is not. Unfortunately, US criminal system routinely imprisons innocents (and in other countries I'm sure it is not much different). E.g. check out Innocence Project[1]. Criminal justice system is rife with errors, malfunctions and abuse. For imprisonment and fines, one can at least fix an error after the fact. One does not get back years spent in prison, but at least they can get free and maybe also compensated for it somehow. But if the person is dead, you can not fix it.

I was for a long time of the opinion that there are crimes deserving death penalty, and I still kind of think so. But - I am no longer sure the US government, and most of other governments, can be trusted with this power. They are too broken and dysfunctional to be able to wield it justly. As such, it is better to not have it at all.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocence_Project

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#86
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you remove the risk of prison for nonviolent offenders, you're creating a world where large businesses and their owners will no longer care whether they do something illegal, they will only care about the risks of getting caught versus the potential profit to be made. You turn the criminal justice system into a risk analysis that happens in some board room. There will be no real detriment to rich people for breaki…

I understand there has to be some price to be paid. My question is the length. Is the term deterministic or is it arbitrary? I have never really understood why some non-violent crimes are sentenced with 10 years in prison versus 200 years in prison. For example, a self-victim crime of consuming drugs is punished harshly in Singapore.

At some point the length was arbitrary. As precedence is created, it becomes more deterministic but only somewhat more so. Often times there are minimum sentencing laws, the length of which is mostly arbitrary.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#87
post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

Our legal system doesn't push "harm" per se, but rather harm caused unjustly[1]. E.g. it harms me a company raises the price of a product that happens to be in demand ("price gouging") but that company has every right to do so as it owns the product.

One way we can reconcile the utilitarian notion of harm, with the property rights/natural rights approach is through economic theory. The so called "welfare theorems" of economics state that when every person maximizes their own utility (under the assumptions of a perfect market), then the result is pareto optimal. From this it follows that in a society with redistribution of wealth, no person has a right to complain that another person has "harmed" them by way how they behaved in the free market.

Outside of the economic realm, the argument for natural rights is even stronger. How can you compare cheating, which is a consensual act, with robbery? At most cheating could be considered a violation of a contract, e.g. a prenuptial agreement.

By completely ignoring the role of natural rights and property rights in the law and in moral reasoning, you are engaging in sophistry.

[1] e.g. "[with developments such as the Model Penal Code] crime increasingly became conceptualized as the wrongful imposition of risk" (my emphasis) in "Making the Best of Felony Murder" http://www.bu.edu/law/journals-archive/bulr/documents/binder...

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#88
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep saying that prison deters public order offences. It clearly doesn't. I'm curious why you think it does?

Where is your evidence that prison doesn't deter petty crimes, burglary, rape, etc.?

You make a good point, but I rather think the burden of evidence that prison is a deterrent rests on the people who recommend it, seeing as prison is a pretty significant interference with someone's human rights.

I should say that I have no problem of prison for repeat violent criminals. Some people say that prison stops those people committing crime while they're in prison, but it doesn't even do that. Look at the rates of violent crime happening in US prisons (which I accept are unusual) to see evidence of that. There's not much evidence that a stay in prison stops a person from re-offending; it seems that there's a bunch of "psycho-social" stuff (housing, debt management, employment, education, drug and alcohol treatment) that would be more effective at stopping re-offending. (Or preventing crime).

And do we really want to deprive someone of their liberty in prison for "petty crime"? I'm not sure what you mean about petty crime.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#89
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever chosen not to do something because you want to avoid prison? Or is there other stuff that's stopping you from breaking laws?

Of course, most people are socialised not to even consider breaking most laws, but that only happens because they live in a lawful society. When you see people around you breaking the rules, you feel much less obliged to keep them.

But I'm not calling for a lawless society. You can have rule of law with minimal prison use.

I'm not sure why people are thinking that I'm calling for an end to law.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#90
post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

>I got the insurance money.

>I was mugged one time

Have you considered that muggings are rare and underwriting property insurance is rational because theft/burglary carries the risk of jail time?

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