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Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

nerdinvest.blogspot.com

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Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#81

Post by mikeash »

roymurdock wrote: post #70
hackuser wrote: post #5

A rarely discussed benefit to minimum income: The higher the social benefits, then I think the greater the labor market liquidity, for both employers and workers. Currently everything else depends on your job: Either you have one, and you have income, benefits, and all that goes with them in a society where everything costs money; or you don't and you have nothing (or very little). But if you don't lose you house, st…

1. UBI can be thought of as large-scale debt forgiveness. You are simply giving people the means to escape (often, but not always) self-imposed debts. 2. UBI would lead to a huge jump in inflation (as a %, nearly as much as the initial UBI stimulus % of total money in circulation) as the vast majority of UBI recipients would have a large propensity to immediately spend that money, thereby simply releasing it into cir…

I don't understand #2. UBI wouldn't increase the amount of money in circulation, unless you paid for it by printing money or borrowing. But everything I've seen advocates for paying for UBI with taxes.

For #3, the overall trend is that people have fewer children, not more, when they have more money. Maybe UBI money would be different somehow, but since you're positing the opposite effect from what we've seen so far, I think it needs way more support.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#82

Post by manyoso »

X86BSD wrote: post #76
manyoso wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UBI can be scaled by the cost of living index which will shelter it from inflation. We have a sovereign money supply for a reason. Let's use it!

I keep seeing people say use the cost of living index. Do any of you realize what a fraud that is? They have taken out the two most expensive categories people spend money on to survive . Food and energy. And it's been like that for decades. That index is as useless as tits on a tree.

It can be tied directly to inflation or even to GDP. See details here: https://medium.com/basic-income/wouldnt-unconditional-basic-...

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#83

Post by noonespecial »

jerelunruh wrote: post #36

Let's say that currently rent is $1,000 per month, food is $500, and Alice is earning $2,500. Now UBI is implemented and Alice and all fellow citizens receive $1,000 per month. What will keep the market from easing the entry level rent up to $1,500 and food to $1,000 since the money is available? At first glance it seems like we'd just be choosing a different number representing "broke".

Draw it out into the absurd to watch it work:

Consider a society with 2 members, Mr Rich (net worth $10M) and Mr. Poor (net worth $100). Mr. Rich is 100,000 X richer than Mr. Poor right now.

Institute a ridiculous UBI of $1M/year for everyone. At the end of the year, Mr. Poor has $1,000,100 and Mr Rich has $11M but Mr Rich is now only ~ 11 X richer than Mr Poor.

Now sure cheeseburgers at Micky-D's are now $700 but the fact has changed that before, Mr Rich could buy a hundred thousand burgers for every one Mr Poor could buy. Now he can only buy 11.

UBI works like gravity. Continually pulling the unequal towards a center. The rich will still stay rich, but unlike today where rich automatically makes richer, the force will be reversed. It will take "energy" to stay rich.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#84

Post by mindslight »

Kenji wrote: post #14

Haha, I love how the tech community is so liberal and critical against government when it comes to privacy and meddling with our private lives, yet that exact same community is mostly in agreement with UBI which in turn means being completely dependent on the state. If the state thinks you do something it does not like (you're a ''terrorist''), your UBI will be striked - you know that, right?

I suspect you might have better luck by not being so confrontational and generalizing, and instead using that energy to better critique the actual topic.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#85

Post by ConfuciusSay02 »

Kenji wrote: post #14

Haha, I love how the tech community is so liberal and critical against government when it comes to privacy and meddling with our private lives, yet that exact same community is mostly in agreement with UBI which in turn means being completely dependent on the state. If the state thinks you do something it does not like (you're a ''terrorist''), your UBI will be striked - you know that, right?

It doesn't mean you're completely dependent on the state, people can still get jobs and have a career, go off grid, same as now.

It's almost as if there are different people with different opinions in the tech community.

And what's wrong with applauding the government when they make a policy decision that helps your average person, while critisizing them when they make a decision that hurts your average person?

The hilarious part is, the rabid anti-government "libertarians" are always the first ones to also be rabidly pro military (the largest socialist entity in the government).

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#86

Post by emartinelli »

nmrm2 wrote: post #63
emartinelli wrote: post #20

In Brazil, we have a law[1], from 2004, implementing UBI, but it is not nearly applied for all population. This law determine a gradual implementation and I believe that the the full one is far away. There are some benefits for poor people, unfortunately there are frauds and IMHO some mass manipulation from government. [1] http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/_ato2004-2006/2004/lei/... (Portuguese)

Are you referring to bolsa familia? Or is this something else? (I don't speak Portuguese)

Yes, I am, Bolsa Familia is a national program. We have a city (Santo Antonio do Pinhal) that seems to have implemented UBI, too (I don't know much about that one). This article[1] (2013), in English, explains the current scenario and the law that I referenced.

The original proposal seems interesting to me, but I don't see government efforts to implement it as defined in law.

[1] http://www.basicincome.org/news/2013/06/opinion-a-three-step...

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#87

Post by VLM »

locopati wrote: post #34

Honest question - how does UBI address hikes in the cost of basic necessities (food, shelter, clothes) by companies knowing that everyone can afford them?

The market won't change too much. Everyone can afford food and shelter and clothes now, in the former 1st world countries. There are places in the world where people can't get food and thus die in the streets, but this is a rounding error here. Therefore not much will change at the bottom end. Prices might drop slightly due to reduced demand because people will occasionally splurge.

Note that this won't actually help with many social problems. For example kids who go to school hungry because mom spent todays money on crack will after UBI merely go to school hungry because mom spent todays money plus UBI on crack. Neither the slumlord nor the supermarket will see a penny more. Cultural changes are much harder to make than mere economic changes.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#88

Post by tangent128 »

locopati wrote: post #34

Honest question - how does UBI address hikes in the cost of basic necessities (food, shelter, clothes) by companies knowing that everyone can afford them?

If competition works, companies won't be able to hike the price of necessities.

If competition doesn't work, the entire premise of capitalism is unsound.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#89

Post by ck2 »

Jeez I wish people would quit this.

Minimum income means guaranteed maximum prices for things like rent and food that you cannot live without.

You think your $500 a month apartment isn't going to become $800 when the landlord knows everyone is getting at least $1000?

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#90

Post by kbenson »

DiffEq wrote: post #44
hackuser wrote: post #5

A rarely discussed benefit to minimum income: The higher the social benefits, then I think the greater the labor market liquidity, for both employers and workers. Currently everything else depends on your job: Either you have one, and you have income, benefits, and all that goes with them in a society where everything costs money; or you don't and you have nothing (or very little). But if you don't lose you house, st…

Yet nowhere has this been "field tested" for any length of time. Unless one makes the case that it has been tested in the form of several countries in the 20th century. Places like the the Soviet Union, China, etc. We see that it failed in those places and in Soviet countries it failed fantastically. The fatal flaw in all of this...who is going to pay for it?

While I would agree Minimum Income is more along the spectrum towards Socialism that Capitalism from our current point, I don't think we can fairly equate it with Communism. There are a few places trying it out though[1][2][3].

> The fatal flaw in all of this...who is going to pay for it?

Well, the simple, possibly simplistic answer is "the same people that pay for wellfare". Which is everyone not receiving it. To be sure, it would need quite a lot of work on the details to even be possible in an economically viable way.

Edit: Added more references.

1: http://www.businessinsider.com/this-dutch-city-is-giving-bas...

2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11273482 (Alaska)

3: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11273482 (Ontario)

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