Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High • Hacker News Board

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#51

Post by strasser » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:53 PM UTC

YuriNiyazov wrote: post #40

A tech CEO in his mid-fifties once told me: "There is no ageism in the valley - by the time you get to your forties and fifties, you are either a CTO, or you weren't very good to begin with".

This is typical bullshit coming from some asshole manager. People who aspire to be managers think they're God's gift and it's the ending point for your career.

By definition, there will always be less numbers of managers than technicians.

Being a manager is a different skillset and not everyone WANTS to be a manager.

Typical comment from a clueless pointy haired boss!

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#52

Post by kamaal » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:55 PM UTC

outside1234 wrote: post #33

6d6b73 wrote: post #24

I recently realized that when my son in my age (37) I will be 67 years old, and getting (hopefully) ready to retire. This made me realize that in 30 years there is no way that I will be able to stay competitive in this field, and be able to find a decent job.

Why? What is the logic behind that? You will have 30 years more experience than him.

And less 30 years worth energy, enthusiasm and liabilities. What is knowledge worth in the era where any algorithm can be looked up in a google search.

Young people work for longer hours, don't fall sick often, come in on weekends and are more productive.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#53

Post by Lawtonfogle » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

vox_mollis wrote: post #8

rdl wrote: post #3

I still maintain there's age-cohort bias (anti boomer, etc.), not strictly age bias. In 2000, I remember most people over 30 being clueless about the Internet (given that the population who were familiar with the Internet in the 80swas so small...that core group was of course super clueful, but was of measure zero vs. people who were learning about it in college every year.) Now, it's largely been the case that anyon…

I'd hazard a guess that there is some appearance bias involved, as well. Older people tend toward higher BMI, and younger overweight people "carry" their weight better. Discrimination on appearance is already well-documented.

Should appearance be a protected class? One often has more control over their religion than their appearance, especially in certain areas, so I can't see why no.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#54

Post by cmdrfred » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #39

yummyfajitas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the problem correcting itself when it seems the drivers behind age discrimination are wages This is a situation where it's not age discrimination at all - it's merely a candidate pricing themselves out of the market. Similarly, toomuchtodo suggests that as his life moves forward he'll be less willing to put the work in than his younger peers. That reduces his value. Perhaps a significant chunk of age disc…

"Similarly, toomuchtodo suggests that as his life moves forward he'll be less willing to put the work in than his younger peers. That reduces his value." While my value is reduced by not working more hours than I'm paid for, I would argue that government should be stepping in when tech companies are discriminating against workers who would like labor law followed (paid for the hours you work). Why is it okay for work…

It is estimated that wage theft is the number one property crime in the US.[1]

[1]http://priceonomics.com/how-employers-get-out-of-paying-thei...

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#55

Post by kamaal » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:58 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #10

kilroy123 wrote: post #2

Personally, I worry about this in our industry. I plan to save, invest, and diversify my income. That way I can get out of the sooner, rather than later. I don't want to end up being a 50+ year old who can no longer get a job.

> I don't want to end up being a 50+ year old who can no longer get a job So just stay relevant? I'm 28, been coding for 19 years. What was relevant to learn when I was in middle and high school is completely useless now. All those endless hours spent learning how to make games in Pascal, irrelevant technologies. All those endless hours spent learning PHP3/4 and cobbling together websites and crude frameworks, irrele…

>>Keep improving. Be an engineer, not just a coder.

Better. Why just stop there. Avoid the need to do something to make a living. Save, invest and plan for your retirement.

Once you've done that, you could on any day 'enjoy' programming just for fun.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#56

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:00 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #54

toomuchtodo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Similarly, toomuchtodo suggests that as his life moves forward he'll be less willing to put the work in than his younger peers. That reduces his value." While my value is reduced by not working more hours than I'm paid for, I would argue that government should be stepping in when tech companies are discriminating against workers who would like labor law followed (paid for the hours you work). Why is it okay for work…

It is estimated that wage theft is the number one property crime in the US.[1] [1] http://priceonomics.com/how-employers-get-out-of-paying-thei...

What are your thoughts on ways wage theft could be better monitored and reported?

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#57

Post by disposeofnick9 » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:02 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #38

mark_l_watson wrote: post #19

I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. I sort of grew up with computers. My older brother and I got a mini version of a mechanical difference engine when I was a kid. When I was about 11 my Dad got me occasional use of a time sharing system, so that planted some desire in my brain for using computers. In high school…

>I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. You obviously have ton of expertise and experience to make age a non issue. This is not the case for older people trying to break into programming. Employers often take a chance with younger employee over older ones if all things are equal. That is bias the article is taking ab…

Such subconscious biases are what tends to allow some people to get away with being borderline useless, and others shot by cops or fired without warning.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#58

Post by ronyeh » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:03 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #38

mark_l_watson wrote: post #19

I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. I sort of grew up with computers. My older brother and I got a mini version of a mechanical difference engine when I was a kid. When I was about 11 my Dad got me occasional use of a time sharing system, so that planted some desire in my brain for using computers. In high school…

>I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. You obviously have ton of expertise and experience to make age a non issue. This is not the case for older people trying to break into programming. Employers often take a chance with younger employee over older ones if all things are equal. That is bias the article is taking ab…

Just playing devil's advocate, but isn't that a logical approach? If two junior programmers show up on my doorstep, and one is 25 and the other is 55, why wouldn't I go with the 25 year old (all other skills being equal)?

If I'm lucky, maybe the young person will want to work with my company for a decade or two, or even more. Would the 55 year old want to work for several decades more?

Of course, I am also worried about age bias. I'm curious what will happen if/when I decide to join a company again after age 40.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#59

Post by geebee » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:04 PM UTC

mark_l_watson wrote: post #19

I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. I sort of grew up with computers. My older brother and I got a mini version of a mechanical difference engine when I was a kid. When I was about 11 my Dad got me occasional use of a time sharing system, so that planted some desire in my brain for using computers. In high school…

Fair enough. This is one reason why I tend to use the phrase "age related employment issues" instead of age discrimination or age bias. It's a mouthful, and it certainly includes bias or discrimination, but that doesn't tell the whole story. I actually think the problems here run deep.

There are many aspects of the high tech workspace that don't really appeal to a lot of people, especially as they enter middle age (but by no means limited, plenty of young people don't like it either). Ping pong tables, video game consoles, open offices. The office setup is also a factor - I read an article (NYTimes, I think) about a middle aged woman journalist whose company was purchased by a modern tech media company. She lost her private office and worked in a big open room, with back visibility, where her (often much younger) coworkers were able to track her more frequent trips to the bathroom.

Funny thing for me, I was disappointed with this culture even when I was young. I majored in literature as well as math (with a cs focus), and I remember when I was younger how drawn I was to movies that kind of glamorized adulthood for me (the party scene in the movie "Manhattan" where the intellectual avant guard banter really appealed to me - I know it was a fantasy, but aren't all aspirations about what you want to grow up, to an extent?).

I started working at Sun Micro after grad school, and while I didn't want to be a lawyer or in finance, I envied something about my friends who went into these fields - they were treated as adults. Their getaways were to nice restaurants, our office getaway was at Dave N Busters. It was a letdown. And I'd say that tech culture has double down on this kind of thing since I was a grad student back in the late 90s.

Honestly, a lot about tech culture is really very unappealing to people who don't want to live in a permanent state of extended adolescence. I'm willing to take this a little further and say it isn't an accident - I do think that some elements of high tech are vaguely threatened by the notion that programmers and other technical types are actually adults who might prefer to go to dinner and the opera than dave n busters ad laser tag.

It's more of a gut feeling, or an intuition, but I do think that this plays a much bigger role in the disinterest a lot of people have in tech - including young tech workers themselves (who, in spite of a few notorious statements, generally are not the source of age discrimination). A lot of people, to quote someone fairly insightful on this issue, actually value propriety, protocol, and privacy, and will look elsewhere for a career if those things are in short supply in high tech.

On a brighter note I always felt joelonsoftware addressed this in a very positive way.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#60

Post by tetraodonpuffer » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 7:07 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #28

tetraodonpuffer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So while this might be a problem now, it's correcting itself with time. that assumes that the reasons behind age discrimination/bias are purely based on competence (or lack thereof). I don't see the problem correcting itself when it seems the drivers behind age discrimination are wages and perceived cultural fit (anecdotally more evident in cases where the manager is younger than the candidate)

I don't see the problem correcting itself when it seems the drivers behind age discrimination are wages This is a situation where it's not age discrimination at all - it's merely a candidate pricing themselves out of the market. Similarly, toomuchtodo suggests that as his life moves forward he'll be less willing to put the work in than his younger peers. That reduces his value. Perhaps a significant chunk of age disc…

> it's merely a candidate pricing themselves out of the market

the pricing out is not always voluntary, say you are mid-career, you've been working hard, you lucked out with some career choices, you've been getting very good raises due to your performance, now you are paid over the high end for your salary band, which is fine where you are working because you've built up credibility and a solid track record, and it can happen that you are over band when promotions above where you are are tied to politics or company-specific situations (I have been in companies where above a certain level there are only a specified number of position available, meaning if nobody leaves you can't get promoted there)

Your company then, sadly, might fold, and you find yourself having to find a new job, you might even have to take a job at a level lower than you were at, which you are completely ok with, because say it is in a different area where you don't have as much experience but where you always wanted to work in but just didn't happen to.

It is very likely that you will be passed over for those positions even if you would do great in them because

- when you get to the interview you already have the first strike against you because you are applying for a "lower level" position that where you were

- when you get to salary discussion you get your second strike, where you will be asked what your previous salary was, which could easily have been 1.5x or even 2x than what you would be offered for this position

- odds are that since you haven't been interviewing for a while, or since this position was in an area you were not as familiar with, or you didn't sleep well the previous night, you had a "normal" interview, where you did some things great, and some maybe not-so-great

what is the company going to do? go with you, knowing this was a significant pay cut, knowing this was a position level cut, and assuming that due to the above you are not going to be very engaged not to mention you will likely be leaving asap, or would they go for somebody younger, less experienced, where they could give them a 10% bump over their previous salary and so perceive that they would be a lot more passionate for the position?

In the end unfortunately if you do well at your job, you end up being promoted, and once you hit, say, senior architect, or distinguished engineer, or principal researcher or whatever, the amount of positions available shrinks dramatically, and there is the perception that once you've been there you wouldn't be as happy or fit for anything less

I am not sure how this could be worked around, not when there is a widespread perception that "youth" and "energy" are a lot more important than good old boring experience and been-there-done-that-ness (cue the general infantilization of the workplace)

I am hoping that the recent efforts towards making the interviewing process more data-driven (via work-at-home assignments etc.) will pan off, because that might remove some of the barriers, although it does still worry me that in the end you always get to the "cultural fit" interview where you can't be somebody you're not (i.e. younger or less experienced)