Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#21

Post by drabiega » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:43 PM UTC

manyoso wrote: post #12

maxxxxx wrote: post #10

My prediction for Basic Income is that even if it gets introduced a few years/decades later a lot of people will complain (rightfully or not) about all those parasites not doing anything while "job creators" have to pay for it. At least in the US it won't work long term looking at the current discussions about tax rates.

If it is also sold and paired with an elimination of the general income tax I think it could have wide support on the right and left. And how would we pay for it without a national income tax? A value added tax and a carbon tax.

VAT is a great alternative to a US style sales tax, but it is still regressive and UBI + regressive taxation seems like a pretty terrible combination.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#22

Post by Florin_Andrei » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:43 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #10

My prediction for Basic Income is that even if it gets introduced a few years/decades later a lot of people will complain (rightfully or not) about all those parasites not doing anything while "job creators" have to pay for it. At least in the US it won't work long term looking at the current discussions about tax rates.

The USA is uniquely unfit from a cultural standpoint to accept the idea of universal basic income. It's funny, the cultures that would easily accept such an idea are America's old enemies, the former Eastern Bloc countries.

It's interesting how UBI is the way of the future, while America's own way of thinking is opposed to it.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#23

Post by falsestprophet » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:44 PM UTC

A lot of the minimum income people are also for open borders and I rather doubt you can have both.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#24

Post by tomkinstinch » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:44 PM UTC

debacle wrote: post #15

manyoso wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is also sold and paired with an elimination of the general income tax I think it could have wide support on the right and left. And how would we pay for it without a national income tax? A value added tax and a carbon tax.

We need to return to a wealth-oriented tax. Neither income tax nor VAT are taxes on wealth. But even as someone without a lot to worry about, I can't think of a fair way to tax wealth outside of land taxes, which would greatly disrupt the economy.

The estate tax is one mechanism we have now to tax wealth.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#25

Post by anu7df » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:45 PM UTC

I am inclined to think all this is posturing. UBI has the potential to reduce the friction involved in changing jobs. This alone makes it unpalatable to the corporations. When corporations don't want this, they will lobby and scare people till UBI becomes contentious. I can already see the ads... Booming voice narrator " UBI is tax on the small business. Say no to UBI"

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#26

Post by nugget » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:46 PM UTC

Serious question for folks here - do you believe we can successfully institute a meaningful basic income in the US with the current immigration policies? How would policies have to change given the increased incentives from UBI?

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#27

Post by thisislame » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:47 PM UTC

The powerful political force behind minimum income is the rentier class who will ultimately capture it as rent.

Replacing existing programs with "free choice" is a well-worn playbook. See also: pensions vs. 401k plans.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#28

Post by twoodfin » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:49 PM UTC

Sorry, which "powerful political forces"? A Canadian newspaper?

In keeping with HN guidelines, I don't like to comment on why I flag articles, but I'm going to continue to flag the nearly content-less Basic Income posts that seemingly rocket up the front page a few times a week.

I'm sure there are comprehensive, insightful articles on BI out there. If they're ever posted, I'll probably vote them up.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#29

Post by ef4 » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:49 PM UTC

Prediction: if universal basic income starts to become an imminent possibility, the existing public and private sector welfare bureaucracy will lobby against it. Because it will put them all out of a job.

Not coincidentally, this is also how you can sell the idea to people with libertarian leanings: universal basic income means much less discretion for unelected administrators, and more discretion for each individual on how dollars get spent.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#30

Post by xrange » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 6:49 PM UTC

Here's something I like to see some discussion on from Basic Income proponents. Does BI need to be rolled out everywhere-all-at-once, or is it possible to do small scale experiments to look at the effects? If you think it is possible to have meaningful smaller scale tests, how small can it be? 1000 participants? 100,000 participants? 10,000,000 participants? And then the big question, would there be any outcomes from these smaller scale tests that would convince you that BI isn't feasible? Can share your list of those undesirable outcomes that would change your mind about the desirability of BI? (No sense in running tests if no one will change their mind). Also, what do people think of the Social Security retirement situation as being a fairly large example of BI, that has been running for the last 80 years on a subset of Americans. Does the fact that they are older invalidate it as an example case in your mind?