Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

nerdinvest.blogspot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 158 posts

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#11

Post by manyoso »

hackuser wrote: post #5

A rarely discussed benefit to minimum income: The higher the social benefits, then I think the greater the labor market liquidity, for both employers and workers. Currently everything else depends on your job: Either you have one, and you have income, benefits, and all that goes with them in a society where everything costs money; or you don't and you have nothing (or very little). But if you don't lose you house, st…

Some other major reasons people support UBI are:

* Eliminating poverty and reducing economic inequality

* Simplifying the social safety net

* Preparing for a future where jobs have been automated

* Stimulating entrepreneurship

* Giving people the freedom to pursue their passions

* Paying caregivers for their economic contributions to society

* Recognizing a livable income as a human right

* Paving the way for a new American Dream in the 21st century

Taken from this survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5NFBGBV

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#12

Post by manyoso »

maxxxxx wrote: post #10

My prediction for Basic Income is that even if it gets introduced a few years/decades later a lot of people will complain (rightfully or not) about all those parasites not doing anything while "job creators" have to pay for it. At least in the US it won't work long term looking at the current discussions about tax rates.

If it is also sold and paired with an elimination of the general income tax I think it could have wide support on the right and left. And how would we pay for it without a national income tax? A value added tax and a carbon tax.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#13

Post by debacle »

hackuser wrote: post #5

A rarely discussed benefit to minimum income: The higher the social benefits, then I think the greater the labor market liquidity, for both employers and workers. Currently everything else depends on your job: Either you have one, and you have income, benefits, and all that goes with them in a society where everything costs money; or you don't and you have nothing (or very little). But if you don't lose you house, st…

Exactly this! If you create UBI and have universal healthcare, entrepreneurship, makership, lifestyle businesses, etc, are going to explode.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#14

Post by Kenji »

Haha, I love how the tech community is so liberal and critical against government when it comes to privacy and meddling with our private lives, yet that exact same community is mostly in agreement with UBI which in turn means being completely dependent on the state. If the state thinks you do something it does not like (you're a ''terrorist''), your UBI will be striked - you know that, right?

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#15

Post by debacle »

manyoso wrote: post #12
maxxxxx wrote: post #10

My prediction for Basic Income is that even if it gets introduced a few years/decades later a lot of people will complain (rightfully or not) about all those parasites not doing anything while "job creators" have to pay for it. At least in the US it won't work long term looking at the current discussions about tax rates.

If it is also sold and paired with an elimination of the general income tax I think it could have wide support on the right and left. And how would we pay for it without a national income tax? A value added tax and a carbon tax.

We need to return to a wealth-oriented tax. Neither income tax nor VAT are taxes on wealth.

But even as someone without a lot to worry about, I can't think of a fair way to tax wealth outside of land taxes, which would greatly disrupt the economy.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#16

Post by herge »

jbrun wrote: post #2

If you are in Quebec - join us at http://revenudebase.quebec In Canada: join us at : http://biencanada.ca

What do you think about Jean-Robert Sansfaçon's critique in Le Devoir (http://www.ledevoir.com/economie/actualites-economiques/4624...), where he calculates that to give only 10,000$ per inhabitant in Quebec per year, you would need 68 billion dollars, ~22 times the amount currently spent on social welfare. Also, that would constitute 70% of the current tax revenue of the Quebec government.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#17

Post by manyoso »

debacle wrote: post #15
manyoso wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is also sold and paired with an elimination of the general income tax I think it could have wide support on the right and left. And how would we pay for it without a national income tax? A value added tax and a carbon tax.

We need to return to a wealth-oriented tax. Neither income tax nor VAT are taxes on wealth. But even as someone without a lot to worry about, I can't think of a fair way to tax wealth outside of land taxes, which would greatly disrupt the economy.

I would take the cost/benefit of a combination UBI and VAT over a wealth/income tax with current social safety net any day and twice on Sunday.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#18

Post by afarrell »

I wonder if there is a way to structure it as a dividend from the profits gained by unemploying people via automation. That way, fixed-income voters have a double incentive to advocate for policies of more automation:

- It goes into their pockets

- It reduces their cost of living

If they vote in large numbers, as retirees do, that creates a large constituency to remove red tape.

The problem is making sure there is still enough profit motive to invest.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#19

Post by Florin_Andrei »

zanny wrote: post #8

While I am a staunch advocate of UBI as a solution to a massive swath of present and emerging problems around the world, I also do not see the experiments around it leading to its mass adoption in at least the span of decades. Things have to get much worse (and they will) and we will need some active social unrest (on the scale of Occupy Wall Street or Black Lives Matter, except informed about UBI and fighting for it…

So that's the question, isn't it. Will it go down smoothly, or will we go through another round of revolutions and unrest everywhere, complete with burning down the mansions and whatnot.

Re: Powerful Political Forces Are Aligning Behind Minimum Income

#20

Post by emartinelli »

In Brazil, we have a law[1], from 2004, implementing UBI, but it is not nearly applied for all population. This law determine a gradual implementation and I believe that the the full one is far away. There are some benefits for poor people, unfortunately there are frauds and IMHO some mass manipulation from government.

[1] http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/_ato2004-2006/2004/lei/... (Portuguese)

Post reply on HN