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Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

nytimes.com

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Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#31

Post by true_religion »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #23
mark_l_watson wrote: post #19

I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. I sort of grew up with computers. My older brother and I got a mini version of a mechanical difference engine when I was a kid. When I was about 11 my Dad got me occasional use of a time sharing system, so that planted some desire in my brain for using computers. In high school…

I've noticed that whether you are/were interested in management is a factor. Younger managers can imagine hiring older managers, but rarely engineers.

I wonder why? Is it because there's something potentially odd about hiring someone with more experience (and perhaps thus a much greater skill level) than you when you are both on the same career track?

I have never had to do it, but I'd like to think the 60-year old version of me would be much better at my job than I am. Thus, if I hire them, I'd wonder "why am I tech lead? It really should be the other way around".

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#32

Post by sridca »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #19

I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. I sort of grew up with computers. My older brother and I got a mini version of a mechanical difference engine when I was a kid. When I was about 11 my Dad got me occasional use of a time sharing system, so that planted some desire in my brain for using computers. In high school…

Oh, it is Mark Watson! When I first came across your blog (via Clojure stuff) what fascinated me most about you was your sustained passion despite age. It actually gave me further assurance that my current passion for programming need not wither away in later years (contrary to what most people think).

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#33

Post by outside1234 »

6d6b73 wrote: post #24

I recently realized that when my son in my age (37) I will be 67 years old, and getting (hopefully) ready to retire. This made me realize that in 30 years there is no way that I will be able to stay competitive in this field, and be able to find a decent job.

Why? What is the logic behind that? You will have 30 years more experience than him.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#34

Post by Lawtonfogle »

kasey_junk wrote: post #13
Swizec wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to end up being a 50+ year old who can no longer get a job So just stay relevant? I'm 28, been coding for 19 years. What was relevant to learn when I was in middle and high school is completely useless now. All those endless hours spent learning how to make games in Pascal, irrelevant technologies. All those endless hours spent learning PHP3/4 and cobbling together websites and crude frameworks, irrele…

> So just stay relevant? The point of age bias isn't bias against people without relevant skills, its an actual bias against person of certain ages. Our industry is ripe with stories of folks with extremely relevant skill sets not getting jobs after a certain age (50 seems to be common). There is some (unintentional I'm sure) age bias even in the response of "stay relevant" as if the implication is that older devs do…

>There is some (unintentional I'm sure) age bias even in the response of "stay relevant" as if the implication is that older devs don't do that as a matter of course while younger ones do.

Take two doctors. Both learned all their knowledge going through med school. Neither did anything else to stay relevant. One graduated 5 years ago, the other 25 years. Which is likely to have more relevant knowledge? Is it because they stayed relevant? No. It is because everyone has some learning period (be it through college or not), and on average older workers had that period longer ago than younger workers, so the relevancy bonus has decreased more.

The longer since you had a significant learning period (the longer since you graduated school), the more you have to work to stay relevant. This isn't tied to age, only correlated because it is rarer for a younger person to have had their learning period (graduated) longer ago.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#35

Post by terrywilcox »

chroma wrote: post #25
Swizec wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to end up being a 50+ year old who can no longer get a job So just stay relevant? I'm 28, been coding for 19 years. What was relevant to learn when I was in middle and high school is completely useless now. All those endless hours spent learning how to make games in Pascal, irrelevant technologies. All those endless hours spent learning PHP3/4 and cobbling together websites and crude frameworks, irrele…

> So just stay relevant? I'm 28, been coding for 19 years. What was relevant to learn when I was in middle and high school is completely useless now. One thing that older people (50+) have impressed upon me is that learning gets harder as you age. It's not just that your body and mind become tired more easily. In general, if a 20-year-old and a 50-year-old spend the same amount of time studying something, the 20-year…

Learning doesn't get much harder. Making time to learn gets much harder.

The real problem is that while the 50 year old has already had 30 years more learning than the 20 year old, the 50 year old probably doesn't know who the Kardashians are. How can you not know who the Kardashians are? What's wrong with you?

My exact experience.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#36

Post by mark_l_watson »

sridca wrote: post #32
mark_l_watson wrote: post #19

I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. I sort of grew up with computers. My older brother and I got a mini version of a mechanical difference engine when I was a kid. When I was about 11 my Dad got me occasional use of a time sharing system, so that planted some desire in my brain for using computers. In high school…

Oh, it is Mark Watson! When I first came across your blog (via Clojure stuff) what fascinated me most about you was your sustained passion despite age. It actually gave me further assurance that my current passion for programming need not wither away in later years (contrary to what most people think).

Thanks for the comment!

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#37

Post by true_religion »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #14
tetraodonpuffer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So while this might be a problem now, it's correcting itself with time. that assumes that the reasons behind age discrimination/bias are purely based on competence (or lack thereof). I don't see the problem correcting itself when it seems the drivers behind age discrimination are wages and perceived cultural fit (anecdotally more evident in cases where the manager is younger than the candidate)

As a 33 year old tech worker, I have specifically accelerated by plans of getting out of tech by my mid 30s due to ageism in the industry (unless I decide to start my own "lifestyle" startup I can live off of). I'm not going to be a good culture fit when I want work/life balance, no more than 40 hours a week of work, not on call 24/7, etc. EDIT: Perhaps I've just been working the wrong gigs. Thanks for the feedback a…

I'm wondering where your job market is located.

40 hours a week, never-on call, isn't really a problem on the East coast (DC/Georgia/Florida) markets. In fact, I'd say the reverse bias is through in DC/VA/Maryland. Small to mid-size employers expect you to have a family, move permanently into the area, and stay with them for 5+ years.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#38

Post by dominotw »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #19

I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped. I sort of grew up with computers. My older brother and I got a mini version of a mechanical difference engine when I was a kid. When I was about 11 my Dad got me occasional use of a time sharing system, so that planted some desire in my brain for using computers. In high school…

>I am in my mid-60s and I don't feel like I have suffered any age bias either at large companies like Google or small startups I have helped.

You obviously have ton of expertise and experience to make age a non issue. This is not the case for older people trying to break into programming.

Employers often take a chance with younger employee over older ones if all things are equal. That is bias the article is taking about.

Re: Claims of Age Bias Rise, but Standards of Proof Are High

#39

Post by toomuchtodo »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #28
tetraodonpuffer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So while this might be a problem now, it's correcting itself with time. that assumes that the reasons behind age discrimination/bias are purely based on competence (or lack thereof). I don't see the problem correcting itself when it seems the drivers behind age discrimination are wages and perceived cultural fit (anecdotally more evident in cases where the manager is younger than the candidate)

I don't see the problem correcting itself when it seems the drivers behind age discrimination are wages This is a situation where it's not age discrimination at all - it's merely a candidate pricing themselves out of the market. Similarly, toomuchtodo suggests that as his life moves forward he'll be less willing to put the work in than his younger peers. That reduces his value. Perhaps a significant chunk of age disc…

"Similarly, toomuchtodo suggests that as his life moves forward he'll be less willing to put the work in than his younger peers. That reduces his value."

While my value is reduced by not working more hours than I'm paid for, I would argue that government should be stepping in when tech companies are discriminating against workers who would like labor law followed (paid for the hours you work).

Why is it okay for workers to be taken advantage of (required to work more hours than they're compensated for) but regulation of employers to protect workers (prohibit) employers from requiring unpaid time) is not?

This is not progress. It's theft.

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