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Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

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Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#311

Post by pathy »

kayoone wrote: post #310

Glaring differences between US and European developer salaries. In europe >100k salaries in western/scandinavian countries are quite uncommon for anything below team lead/CTO level while lots of junior guys seem to earn that kind of money in the US.

For sure, I actually pulled salary statistics from Swedish Statistics yesterday. From 2014, the latest available figure. Estimate an average of 2-3% salary growth per year since.

For the category 2512, "Software- and Systemsdeveloper etc.", which is VERY broad but includes most developers and Application Experts (which is the role I currently have), the 90th percentile salary is $81-82k. The 10th percentile is $40k.

Median salary for men is $60k, and every so slightly lower for women.

Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#312

Post by Symbiote »

ksenzee wrote: post #227
zo1 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I'm afraid it's not a particularly friendly community for women" Anti-female, sexist, or insensitive-about-female-issue posts regularly get downvoted and flagged, from what I've seen.

The worst posts certainly get downvoted and flagged. The problem is the posts that sound reasonable but aren't. It gets tiring and somewhat depressing trying to educate people about the same things over and over again.

That could be because lots of people just ignore these topics on a Web site. I'll argue in person, but it achieves nothing over the Web except to annoy me, so I pass over the comments or articles.

Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#313

Post by spyrosg »

eldavido wrote: post #211
evtothedev wrote: post #17

Does anyone know why engineering salaries are so low in Chicago? Especially with regards to city size / cost of living / amount of tech? It baffled me when I lived there, and it still baffles me when I don't.

Social status. Developers don't have high social status in Chicago, whereas in the Bay Area, they do. I don't care what people say, pay is all just social status. Even relatively objective measures like, "I made the company XX" are only possible in the scope of narrow consulting engagements, and such estimates are hazy. Trying to quantify the long-term economic value of an employee is even worse.

This. The value of social status could be easily tested by exchanging a high salary for significant ownership of the company. My bet is that people would be just as happy.

Someone here recently ranted a bit against the fact that bright minds work in finance on useless work instead of greater things. The one answer from such a worker was about the huge difference between management compensation and worker compensation in those other, "more important" fields. Not the absolute salary.

Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#314

Post by trymas »

kayoone wrote: post #310

Glaring differences between US and European developer salaries. In europe >100k salaries in western/scandinavian countries are quite uncommon for anything below team lead/CTO level while lots of junior guys seem to earn that kind of money in the US.

TL;DR: in Europe salaries are usually discussed after taxes, whereas that amount with all taxes (on both employee and employer) can raise that sum around 2 times or more.

Don't forget the huge system difference.

Are those salaries before taxes or after taxes? Europeans like to know their salary after taxes. Health benefits, PTO, parental leave? In US it's totally under your company's grace, where in Europe most of this is set by law.

All in all salaries are counted different, if employee in Europe has a salary (after taxes) of 30k €, then usually around 15-25k € went for taxes. Thus salary before taxation 45-55k €. Nevertheless employer must pay for that employee somewhere in between 5-15k € (at least in my country) of employer taxes (which are not part of employees salary, but employer is taxes according to it). So whole cost of one employee who is compensated 30k € after taxes is 50-70k €.

Of course it depends on the country and there are 'tax havens'.

Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#315

Post by b14498351 »

antonioneffy wrote: post #55
akhilcacharya wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All depends on the area ;) Best offers I have seen out of college is $130K total comp from random people on the internet, haven't seen anything better yet.

I'm just wondering why a lot of these people with tons of experience are settling for sub-$70k jobs. Is there a reason for this?

I'm wondering the opposite what does one even do with more than $70K?

I'm doing an apprenticeship starting when I was 17 year old and I only earn $11K (I don't pay income tax because it's so low) and yet I managed to save up 8k because I live with my parents right now and except maybe buying a car I don't even know what to spend it on.

For context rent is here at about $400/month for a single bedroom apartment. Another $300/month is enough to cover food and utilities for at least two people.

Unless you want to retire in san francisco or some big city there is no real advantage to buying a home there. So are you buying a new tesla every two years? Are you buying a macbook/iphone/high-end gaming pc every month? I honestly have no clue.

EDIT: Maybe I should also mention that the company will pay me at least $30k/y after the apprenticeship.

Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#316

Post by smrtinsert »

pbrb wrote: post #294
nemo44x wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chicago is so incredibly cheap compared to NYC or SF. You can actually afford to own something in the most desirable parts of Chicago and can still have the benefit of not having to own a car in many cases. I thought about relocating to Chicago (it's a great, underrated city) and was shocked how cheap the rent was in places like Lincoln Park. I could just buy a place. I can't say that about NYC or SF where rents are…

This is the reason I'm still in Chicago. I have wanted to move to SF since 2010, but it just doesn't make sense for my (now) wife and I financially. Recruiters who have called me with job offers in SF just don't have a big enough of a pay bump to make it worth it. It really sucks, because we would love to move to the bay area, we just can't get over the amazing setup we have in Chicago. According to cost of living ca…

My quality of life in my area is huge compared to the seemingly slave like conditions people face in SF. No thanks. If I wanted sun I would go to LA anyways.

Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#317

Post by kayoone »

trymas wrote: post #314
kayoone wrote: post #310

Glaring differences between US and European developer salaries. In europe >100k salaries in western/scandinavian countries are quite uncommon for anything below team lead/CTO level while lots of junior guys seem to earn that kind of money in the US.

TL;DR: in Europe salaries are usually discussed after taxes, whereas that amount with all taxes (on both employee and employer) can raise that sum around 2 times or more. Don't forget the huge system difference. Are those salaries before taxes or after taxes? Europeans like to know their salary after taxes. Health benefits, PTO, parental leave? In US it's totally under your company's grace, where in Europe most of th…

At least where i live (Germany) salaries are never compared after taxes because the tax situation is very individual and influenced hugely by a lot of things like marriage, kids and other income. Also health care payments are influenced by a lot of factors as well. So it makes little sense to compare net pay.

And even then, a good salary for a software developer with good experience would be 60k-80k pre taxes here, usually no bonuses or stock grants, so 100-150k in the US for juniors is still a big difference and imo comes down to the fact of huge competition in the market more than anything.

Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#318

Post by egman_ekki »

jvm wrote: post #306

One thing to note here: European salaries are often quoted post tax, so they look substantially smaller than an American job with similar take-home.

I don't think so. I haven't seen a European country a where you usually discuss your salary post tax...

Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#319

Post by egman_ekki »

trymas wrote: post #314
kayoone wrote: post #310

Glaring differences between US and European developer salaries. In europe >100k salaries in western/scandinavian countries are quite uncommon for anything below team lead/CTO level while lots of junior guys seem to earn that kind of money in the US.

TL;DR: in Europe salaries are usually discussed after taxes, whereas that amount with all taxes (on both employee and employer) can raise that sum around 2 times or more. Don't forget the huge system difference. Are those salaries before taxes or after taxes? Europeans like to know their salary after taxes. Health benefits, PTO, parental leave? In US it's totally under your company's grace, where in Europe most of th…

Which country do you have in mind? I have lived in 3 EU countries and get offers from others and the discussion about salary has always been assumed to be on the pre-tax amount.

Re: Why not just a simple spreadsheet of salaries?

#320

Post by frobozz »

hueving wrote: post #287
ux-app wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well here's the rub, I work as a teacher, which is one of the most highly unionised workforces. I feel deeply sorry when I hear about the awful state of employment (in the US in particular). At will employment, 'unlimited' PTO, healthcare tied to employment etc. It's just so dehumanising and hostile. Doubly baffling is the average Joe's seeming distaste for unions. Here's a sample of the conditions I can enjoy as a t…

>$100k salary with guaranteed yearly increases that outpace inflation (this year was a 2.5% increase while inflation is at around 1.6%) I find it hard to believe that people advocate for such fundamentally unsustainable arrangements. Guaranteed raises outpacing inflation that aren't tied to performance at all? Nobody should be surprised when the costs to support a workforce that trends towards mediocrity (why try whe…

> why try when you are not rewarded

When all are treated the same, regardless of performance, there are two possible situations - either all are rewarded as though underperforming (i.e. raise below inflation), or all are rewarded as though performing well (i.e. raise at or above inflation).

In the former case, my intuition is that your point is probably correct. If I know I'm going to be treated as though I'm the worst employee in the building, I might stop trying after a while.

In the latter case, my intuition is that you are probably wrong. Just because the worst employee is being rewarded as well as I am, it doesn't mean I'll sink to that level.

The intrinsic motivation to do well, improve, and learn all outweigh anything to with competition, and it's a pretty unhealthy culture that relies on the employees competing with their team mates to get them to do their jobs. However, that intrinsic motivation can only go so far when faced with an ever falling budget to maintain your lifestyle.

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