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U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

nytimes.com

161–170 of 246 posts

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be the end of a whole pile of legal strategies.

It's not that obvious. Paul Klemperer (auction theorist) covers a similar question: what happens if the losing party has to pay the prevailing party's legal fees? Answer: the same amount will be spent on legal fees and the same cases will be brought forward. (1) See middle of page 5 here: http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/klemperer/WhyEveryEconomist.p... Where he debunks Dan Quayle's court reform ideas

> ...covers a similar question: what happens if the losing party has to pay the prevailing party's legal fees?

That's not at all a similar question. We're talking about staking the following strategy through the heart:

* Some part of USGov makes an overreaching legal demand using a really shaky (perhaps unsupportable) legal argument.

* They get a magistrate to issue an order in an "emergency" ex parte hearing

Now either:

* USGov presents that court order to a small and/or legally clueless business who says: "This is a court order! I have to comply with it, else I get in trouble!". USGov gets what they wanted and gets to bully another unwary victim with the same bullshit tactic

or

* USGov presents that court order to a larger and/or legally savvy business who examines it and says: "No. This is bullshit."

* That company goes to the court and tells the court why the order is bullshit

* The court quietly mumbles: "USGov... they're right, looks like it's bullshit."

* USGov goes: "Oops! We really didn't need that anyway!", withdraws the request, and retries it at a later day with a less savvy victim

So, completely different situations.

If USGov had to keep pushing such cases through if the defendant demanded that they be pushed through, what you'd get is what we get when Newegg fights patent trolls: evisceration of bullies, thugs, and the chicanery that permits them to operate.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The government is the moving party. If the moving party drops it, the court drops it.

I understand that in principle, but is that the end of it in reality? I'm pretty sure NewEgg was recently taken to court by a patent troll, and after the troll realized that NewEgg fights instead of paying, they backed off. Then NewEgg sued to get a judgement that would guarantee this couldn't happen to them again. I know this is a different venue and there are topical differences. But are you absolutely certain that…

In this context, yes.

Newegg's actions were different, in that the patent owner's dropping the suit didn't actually resolve the question of infringement. It was still out there, and the patent owner could re-file suit at any point in the future. Between now and then, if Newegg were in fact infringing, monetary damages would continue to pile up. So the uncertainty can have a pretty significant impact on business decisions and impair their ability to operate. A request for declaratory judgment seeks to resolve that uncertainty so that both parties can get back to normal.

For Newegg, the request accomplishes a few things. It lets them clear the air, indirectly help solve the resulting from the remaining suits against retailers selling Rosewill products, and it's the legal equivalent of spiking the football and giving the troll a swift kick in the nuts. Minero Digital now gets to defend itself in a Delaware court, absent all of the little advantages of East Texas. It's a rather bad break for them.

Honestly, if I were a patent troll, I'd be scared shitless to send a letter to someone like Newegg. With their stance on patent suits, they're exactly the sort of company that would preemptively file a request for declaratory judgment after they were contacted.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The government is the moving party. If the moving party drops it, the court drops it.

I understand that in principle, but is that the end of it in reality? I'm pretty sure NewEgg was recently taken to court by a patent troll, and after the troll realized that NewEgg fights instead of paying, they backed off. Then NewEgg sued to get a judgement that would guarantee this couldn't happen to them again. I know this is a different venue and there are topical differences. But are you absolutely certain that…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#164
post #37

I suspect that the intelligence and law enforcement communities are afraid that if this case goes to the Supreme Court the All Writs Act may be scaled back or ruled unconstitutional. The All Writs Act goes back to 1789 and is used for all sorts of things, like wire tapping, obtaining call and ISP records, etc., and now trying to force Apple to make malware for their own phone. It's definitely a risk for the FBI to fi…

So why did they push it so far? Was it really just a game of chicken where the FBI wanted to stare down Apple?

This was probably the best possible case for them to try this with. They had a terrorist attack on American soil, and one involving Islamic extremists at that. Not only is there less than zero sympathy for the attackers, there's also an element of fear that you have here as well to go along with the hatred people tend to feel towards terrorists and mass shooters.

They probably thought that if it came down to a PR battle, assuming Apple didn't just roll over for fear of the PR consequences of "obstructing a terror investigation," they had it in the bag. Turns out? Not so much.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#166
While the legal maneuvering is interesting, I'd like to talk more about the technical mechanisms. Is it actually possible?

Snowden said the FBI is full of shit[1] and of course the phone is hackable, citing an ACLU report.[2] This report states that one could "easily" bypass the auto-erase-after-10-attempts function by popping out the Flash memory chip, copying its contents into some sort of test rig wired in its place, and then restoring it whenever it gets erased.

This is an interesting modification of an attack scenario laid out in an excellent review of iPhone/iOS8 security by Matthew Green:

"Since only the device itself knows UID -- and the UID can't be removed from the Secure Enclave -- this means all password cracking attempts have to run on the device itself. That rules out the use of FPGA or ASICs to crack passwords. Of course Apple could write a custom firmware that attempts to crack the keys on the device but even in the best case such cracking could be pretty time consuming, thanks to the 80ms PBKDF2 timing."[3]

What this theoretical rig changes is it essentially allows a custom chip to run on the device (namely a delete-proof Flash chip), bypassing the need for Apple to write custom firmware. So a typical 6 digit one would take under a day to crack, based on the 80ms cost per attempt.

So, it does seem possible to crack the pre-A7 phone in question with this rig.

However, and here is where it gets interesting, Apple has said conflicting things about current phones. One the one hand, ever since the A7 they've added a hardware-level escalating time delay between failed passcode attempts:

"On devices with an A7 or later A-series processor, the delays are enforced by the Secure Enclave. If the device is restarted during a timed delay, the delay is still enforced, with the timer starting over for the current period."[4]

This would in theory make it infeasible to attempt this kind of rig on a current iPhone. Even a typical weak passcode would encounter an hour-long delay at least once every 10 attempts. It could take years to bruteforce all but the most predictable passcodes.

However, Apple has also said that "Yes, it is certainly possible to create an entirely new operating system to undermine our security features as the government wants."[5] This would seem to suggest that software alone could enable bruteforcing, and this implication is in stark contrast to the statement on hardware defenses within the secure enclave. (Did they mean possible only on pre-A7 phones? It sure feels like they feel there's more at stake than that.)

So I don't know what to believe at this point. The ACLU seems wrong in suggesting that this particular rig would work on anything but old pre-A7 iPhones, based on the current secure enclave's time delay. But Apple has outright stated that GovtOS could enable the cracking of iPhones. So... how?

[1] https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/707299113449230336

[2] https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/one-fbis-major-claims-...

[3] http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/10/why-cant-app...

[4] https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

[5] http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/answers/

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#167
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative available to Apple, or any other technology company, when given a valid warrant for someone's data that isn't blatantly ignoring the law? I'm honestly not sure what you are suggesting. Apple has already given them Farook's iCloud backups, just not recent ones since they don't exist. If Alice was murdered, and Bob was circumstantially implicated, but had an iPhone that had some kind of data rec…

This discussion is a bit confused. There are plenty of "valid" subpoenas or search warrants which are squashed after being opposed in court. I'm not sure if the other commenters really believe that no company should ever oppose a search warrant, or if they think "valid" search warrants can't be opposed, or what. But opposing an over-broad or otherwise screwed up "valid" subpoena or search warrant is a necessary part…

Absolutely. But if the court challenges fail over this hypothetical warrant, there's a reasonable expectation for compliance. We live in a rule-based society. It works because people, and especially the government itself, are expected to follow those rules.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#168
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why did they push it so far? Was it really just a game of chicken where the FBI wanted to stare down Apple?

I wouldn't be surprised. The fact that we don't hear about companies standing up like this every couple of weeks might imply that the standard response is compliance.

Which in turn could mean that the standard request is valid, or appears to be valid to the respective party.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#169
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why did they push it so far? Was it really just a game of chicken where the FBI wanted to stare down Apple?

I wouldn't be surprised. The fact that we don't hear about companies standing up like this every couple of weeks might imply that the standard response is compliance.

Which in turn could mean that the standard request is valid, or appears to be valid to the respective party.

Re: U.S. Says It May Not Need Apple’s Help to Unlock iPhone

#170
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely expect Apple to comply with valid warrants to the extent possible. Is there a serious belief that Apple should flout the law? Is there a company in the world that obstructs justice in their home country?

A lot of the big tech companies had an inside look at the growing surveillance state far before the average citizen did. I think an argument can be made that the should have done more to inform the public.

Are you suggesting they go out of business like Lavabit? That is the stand you're taking when you disobey orders to keep government requests secret. And, I'm not sure a large corporation has that option. How could shareholders accept a fine for which they're not permitted to know the details?

Remember when Snowden first revealed the Prism program? All the tech companies issued similar statements saying they want to tell people more, but did not have permission from the US government. For example, Apple said,

> Like several other companies, we have asked the U.S. government for permission to report how many requests we receive related to national security and how we handle them. We have been authorized to share some of that data, and we are providing it here in the interest of transparency. [1]

Also, I'm sure Yahoo would've loved to rally support from its users when the government was threatening to fine them $250,000 per day for refusing to hand over data, but they were not allowed to tell anyone [2]

I do believe the government was doing what they thought was right to protect public safety. However, they don't understand technology. Ted Lieu is about the only guy in Congress who does. We need a bit more representation there to have our voices heard, whether through electing Congressmen with CS backgrounds, independent lobbying like the EFF, or just better tech reporting and questioning in the White House daily briefs.

The existence of the FISA courts is something we should be scrutinizing more. Former NSA Director Hayden pointed out in one interview that we're the only country who has such secret courts. With these courts, democracy is circumvented. Currently, the public is not able to participate in the discussion of what's right on some major issues that have far reaching impact.

[1] http://www.apple.com/apples-commitment-to-customer-privacy/

[2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-lawsu...

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