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Why we should fear a cashless world

theguardian.com

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Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#241

Post by EdSharkey »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #236
EdSharkey wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a crutch. Separation of powers is a desirable thing because it tries to prevent the concentration of too much power in a body, group, or person. The Bill of Rights and constitution specifically LIMITS the powers of the federal government. America is an experiment in government that is no longer running, but its edifice is still there - which does not scale because it was designed _not to_. Any power or servi…

The problem with doing income redistribution at the state level is that citizenship is at the federal level. If Ohio decides to have a state welfare system and Michigan doesn't, Michigan's poor move to Ohio and the system collapses. A good solution would be to create a universal basic income at the federal level funded by a no-exceptions flat tax on consumption, which keeps the federal government simple, and then let…

And having welfare programs in today's America draws the poor from other countries. Not sure how what you're describing is any different, just a different scale. Every year around springtime, hundreds of homeless will literally start a trek from Portland OR to Berkeley CA to get enrolled in their generous welfare programs. What you describe happens already.

You can believe that churches and governments can easily match and surpass whatever the federal government can dish out once economic power reverts to the States.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#242

Post by AnthonyMouse »

EdSharkey wrote: post #241
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with doing income redistribution at the state level is that citizenship is at the federal level. If Ohio decides to have a state welfare system and Michigan doesn't, Michigan's poor move to Ohio and the system collapses. A good solution would be to create a universal basic income at the federal level funded by a no-exceptions flat tax on consumption, which keeps the federal government simple, and then let…

And having welfare programs in today's America draws the poor from other countries. Not sure how what you're describing is any different, just a different scale. Every year around springtime, hundreds of homeless will literally start a trek from Portland OR to Berkeley CA to get enrolled in their generous welfare programs. What you describe happens already. You can believe that churches and governments can easily mat…

> And having welfare programs in today's America draws the poor from other countries. Not sure how what you're describing is any different, just a different scale.

The difference is, as already mentioned, citizenship. The US is under no obligation to provide welfare benefits to foreign nationals or grant them citizenship. US states have no equivalent way to prevent low income US citizens from moving there and claiming benefits.

> Every year around springtime, hundreds of homeless will literally start a trek from Portland OR to Berkeley CA to get enrolled in their generous welfare programs. What you describe happens already.

How is the fact that it actually happens supposed to disprove it?

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#243

Post by imtringued »

iolothebard wrote: post #166
narrator wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing about negative interest rates is it is one of the few good reasons to buy physical gold, especially with the elimination of large denomination euro notes.

Gold is just another fiat currency, plus at a high value it's even more worthless as a currency since you'd need such minuscule amounts to trade for goods/services.

Silver is pretty cheap at about $0.50 per gram and the best part? It looks cooler to have a bag full with silver coins than a few gold coins!

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#244

Post by imtringued »

logfromblammo wrote: post #134
gonvaled wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I avoid self checkout - slow and inconvenient. But it's just a matter of improving the technology: we'll get there eventually.

I avoid self-checkout because the entire machine is usually set up around the assumption that I will try to walk out of the store without paying for one or more items, or by futzing the bar codes so that I pay $1 for a $30 beef roast. The self-checkout technology will never improve as long as that assumption remains. If you can't trust the customer to not steal a pack of gum, you can't trust the customer to not steal…

If we put an RFID tag on every item and use an RFID gate then we would just have to walk past the gate which is capable of detecting every item without you having to take it out of your cart or bag. A turnstyle could then force you to pay and disable the RFID tags. Cost and transmission distance of passive RFID tags are the major obstacles, I believe.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#245

Post by imtringued »

xixi77 wrote: post #205
bryondowd wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6 billion out of a global population of 7.125 billion is just over 84%, so not that unbelievable, particularly considering how quickly a usable phone becomes worth approximately zero in the first world.

Yeah, but (e.g. looking at http://www.census.gov/idb/worldpopinfo.html in 2014) 6bn people means that literally everyone over age of 14 has a mobile phone (plus about 100 million of those under 14, too). Even accounting for all the phones first-world children have, it seems like quite a stretch.

It's not that unreasonable. The iphone costs apple only slightly more than $200 to manufacture per unit and there are obviously even cheaper phones out there.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#246

Post by txdv »

retrogradeorbit wrote: post #237

The whole "but criminals use it" is a complete straw man. Yet you can see most people fall for it, over and over again. If we had a totally cashless society, you would see a level of white collar financial and banking crime that would make 2008 seem like a picnic. Anyone who is not convinced that the banking elite are the top criminals needs to watch this very recent documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHgbR…

We should criminalize the usage of water.

Criminals use it after all! Even the banking elite!

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#247

Post by staticelf »

ersii wrote: post #46
staticelf wrote: post #17

The best tip ever for saving to only spend cash. When you have the physical money leaving your hands it feels like a lot more than inserting a card and pressing a pin code. I am mostly using cash if I have the possibility to, which is kind of annoying sometimes since in Sweden (where I live) there are many "cashless" shops. Even in normal grocery stores checkouts it's like 50/50. I've never visited a country that has…

Just wanted to tell you that you're not alone in Sweden with using and liking to use cash. There's at least one more - Hi! I haven't encountered a single grocery store that refuses cash and only accepts electronic/card payments yet. Was this a chain supermarket?

Not the grocery store, but many smaller shops sometimes only accept ccs.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#248

Post by EdSharkey »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #242
EdSharkey wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And having welfare programs in today's America draws the poor from other countries. Not sure how what you're describing is any different, just a different scale. Every year around springtime, hundreds of homeless will literally start a trek from Portland OR to Berkeley CA to get enrolled in their generous welfare programs. What you describe happens already. You can believe that churches and governments can easily mat…

> And having welfare programs in today's America draws the poor from other countries. Not sure how what you're describing is any different, just a different scale. The difference is, as already mentioned, citizenship. The US is under no obligation to provide welfare benefits to foreign nationals or grant them citizenship. US states have no equivalent way to prevent low income US citizens from moving there and claimin…

I was just trying to allay your fears of invading hordes seeking the heavy train of benefit heavy states. Such migrations happen today, legal and not. A lot of business owners profit off of the illegals, whose presence is subsidized by government. Very wicked little underclass we maintain, not quite slavery in modern times, but still...

Perhaps when the States have to administer their own welfare programs, it will no longer be profitable for the individual states to shoulder the burdens of hosting the underclasses when neighboring states will not. Sanity might return to the immigration debate, it could be a really good thing.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#249

Post by scholia »

pixl97 wrote: post #233
scholia wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the plus side, using a card gives you a good list so you can see what you've spent. This makes accounting simpler than using a cash book and accumulating receipts. On the minus side, I use contactless ("wave to pay") all the time now, and find I rarely look to see how much I'm spending on small transactions. Even with larger transactions, it doesn't feel like "real money".

> On the plus side, using a card gives --you-- everyone a good list so you can see what you've spent FTFY. The modern world seems to be one in which business, governments, and hackers know exactly what we are doing.

True ;-)

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#250

Post by newjersey »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #239
newjersey wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the idea of a no-exceptions flat tax on consumption. However, our GDP per capita is only about 53k. If we need to extract about $6.3k (a number I pulled out of my ass - this is about the current IRS standard deduction and is about $500 per month), we'd need about a 12% tax on every single financial transaction. I am afraid this 12% tax will drive a lot of our economy underground forcing us to raise rates. How…

VAT is the usual way. The total tax ends up being 12% (or whatever), but it ends up being a much smaller percentage of the total price at each stage because it's collected throughout the supply chain. And then business customers want to make sure the tax is being collected because they can't deduct the already-paid tax when the item is resold if it wasn't reported by the seller.

How does vat work in other countries? Is it one rate across the country? Do provinces and local government get any of this money? Are they banned from imposing an additional sales tax? I'd think you don't want additional sales tax if you have vat but then you'd lose some revenue for local government.
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