Why we should fear a cashless world • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#231

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 12:19 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #165

pc86 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would presumably need to be several orders of magnitude higher as I would probably buy more donuts than I would submit non-compliance reports. And let's not forget it's the government that's running this - they don't necessarily need to turn a huge (or any) profit to make this work in the long term. Donut with receipt: $ 1.49 Donut without receipt: $ 1.00 Taxable reward from gov't for reporting non-compliance: $50…

The government would also have to worry very little about profit because the fine for not giving customers receipts could be higher than the reward for reporting non-compliance, which makes the system self-funding.

[deleted]

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#232

Post by iofj » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 12:27 AM UTC

scrupulusalbion wrote: post #219

carlob wrote: post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

Why is this phenomena a cost to society? By this phenomena, real prices are able to decrease, with all the concomitant benefits of having reduced expenses.

Almost all Euro govts have >100% of their country's total revenue in debt. If prices were to go down, they're completely screwed. If prices go down because you starve the government's income ... that's incredibly bad for them.

(when prices go down you have to pay a bigger percentage of your income to serve the same debt)

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#233

Post by pixl97 » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 1:10 AM UTC

scholia wrote: post #15

mikegioia wrote: post #10

I've been "cash only" for 8 months now and I love it. Of course I need a credit card if I buy something on Amazon or a one-off web store, but the point is to move as many transactions offline as possible. There are so many privacy benefits to using cash, but one that really resonates with me is the physical nature of it. When you pay for something with cash, you can feel the transaction of money exchanging hands and…

On the plus side, using a card gives you a good list so you can see what you've spent. This makes accounting simpler than using a cash book and accumulating receipts. On the minus side, I use contactless ("wave to pay") all the time now, and find I rarely look to see how much I'm spending on small transactions. Even with larger transactions, it doesn't feel like "real money".

> On the plus side, using a card gives --you-- everyone a good list so you can see what you've spent

FTFY.

The modern world seems to be one in which business, governments, and hackers know exactly what we are doing.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#234

Post by dangjc » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 2:08 AM UTC

If stores weren't required by law to charge the same price to credit card users vs cash users, you would see most stores slap a 2-5% surcharge on credit card transactions, because that's how much they have to pay to Visa/Mastercard/Amex. Many people only use credit cards to get points, which is an unfair tax on customers who don't use credit cards. I find cash to just be easier to use, and I forego the rewards chasing. Once I pay with cash, I can throw away the receipt and not worry about the transaction ever again. No worry about identity theft. No need to check my statement every month and remember whether the transaction was me or not. Easier to split bills or pay people back. Knowing that more of my money is going to the shop keeper than a large financial corporation.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#235

Post by mercutio2 » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 2:30 AM UTC

dangjc wrote: post #234

If stores weren't required by law to charge the same price to credit card users vs cash users, you would see most stores slap a 2-5% surcharge on credit card transactions, because that's how much they have to pay to Visa/Mastercard/Amex. Many people only use credit cards to get points, which is an unfair tax on customers who don't use credit cards. I find cash to just be easier to use, and I forego the rewards chasin…

It is no longer illegal to charge a surcharge for credit cards [0] in most, but not all US states. As far as I know, it has always been legal to give a cash discount.

Until recently the sticker price had to be the credit card price, but all in all it appears merchants don't prefer cash despite the option of discounting it.

[0] https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-cards/credit-card-cha...

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#236

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 2:40 AM UTC

EdSharkey wrote: post #227

newjersey wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A major issue here is income inequality. I understand that a part of me says "well, what's wrong with differences in the quality of life between someone living in some town in state A and someone else living in some town in state B. We can talk about our successes with independent school districts where communities proudly fund their own schools with taxes at rates that they think are the best. Or take local police a…

It's not a crutch. Separation of powers is a desirable thing because it tries to prevent the concentration of too much power in a body, group, or person. The Bill of Rights and constitution specifically LIMITS the powers of the federal government. America is an experiment in government that is no longer running, but its edifice is still there - which does not scale because it was designed _not to_. Any power or servi…

The problem with doing income redistribution at the state level is that citizenship is at the federal level. If Ohio decides to have a state welfare system and Michigan doesn't, Michigan's poor move to Ohio and the system collapses.

A good solution would be to create a universal basic income at the federal level funded by a no-exceptions flat tax on consumption, which keeps the federal government simple, and then let the states do everything else.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#237

Post by retrogradeorbit » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 2:59 AM UTC

The whole "but criminals use it" is a complete straw man. Yet you can see most people fall for it, over and over again.

If we had a totally cashless society, you would see a level of white collar financial and banking crime that would make 2008 seem like a picnic.

Anyone who is not convinced that the banking elite are the top criminals needs to watch this very recent documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHgbRYgpGGs

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#238

Post by newjersey » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 3:07 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #236

EdSharkey wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a crutch. Separation of powers is a desirable thing because it tries to prevent the concentration of too much power in a body, group, or person. The Bill of Rights and constitution specifically LIMITS the powers of the federal government. America is an experiment in government that is no longer running, but its edifice is still there - which does not scale because it was designed _not to_. Any power or servi…

The problem with doing income redistribution at the state level is that citizenship is at the federal level. If Ohio decides to have a state welfare system and Michigan doesn't, Michigan's poor move to Ohio and the system collapses. A good solution would be to create a universal basic income at the federal level funded by a no-exceptions flat tax on consumption, which keeps the federal government simple, and then let…

I love the idea of a no-exceptions flat tax on consumption. However, our GDP per capita is only about 53k. If we need to extract about $6.3k (a number I pulled out of my ass - this is about the current IRS standard deduction and is about $500 per month), we'd need about a 12% tax on every single financial transaction.

I am afraid this 12% tax will drive a lot of our economy underground forcing us to raise rates. How do we prevent that from happening?

https://www.google.com/search?q=us+gdp

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#239

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 3:21 AM UTC

newjersey wrote: post #238

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with doing income redistribution at the state level is that citizenship is at the federal level. If Ohio decides to have a state welfare system and Michigan doesn't, Michigan's poor move to Ohio and the system collapses. A good solution would be to create a universal basic income at the federal level funded by a no-exceptions flat tax on consumption, which keeps the federal government simple, and then let…

I love the idea of a no-exceptions flat tax on consumption. However, our GDP per capita is only about 53k. If we need to extract about $6.3k (a number I pulled out of my ass - this is about the current IRS standard deduction and is about $500 per month), we'd need about a 12% tax on every single financial transaction. I am afraid this 12% tax will drive a lot of our economy underground forcing us to raise rates. How…

VAT is the usual way. The total tax ends up being 12% (or whatever), but it ends up being a much smaller percentage of the total price at each stage because it's collected throughout the supply chain. And then business customers want to make sure the tax is being collected because they can't deduct the already-paid tax when the item is resold if it wasn't reported by the seller.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#240

Post by studentrob » Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 3:43 AM UTC

hawkice wrote: post #189

studentrob wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan is mostly cash and they use a receipt lottery to encourage people to buy from vendors who give receipts. Each receipt has a number and there's a lottery at the end of the month with cash prizes. Also, people here know they can report a business for not giving out receipts. They might get a share of recovered taxes for that. I don't know all the pros and cons of that setup but it seems there are ways to maintai…

I was familiar with the lotteries (didn't participate -- I just put my receipts in the charity buckets or the trash) but had NO IDEA this was why. I just assumed it was because the culture is just much more amenable to gambling (which I think is also true, but might not be the reason it's tied to receipts). If this is truly the reason for the lotteries, is the government / tax agency giving out the prizes? I never bo…

> If this is truly the reason for the lotteries, is the government / tax agency giving out the prizes?

Yes of course. Every country has trouble collecting taxes. In Taiwan they memorialize the day when the police were too heavy handed with a woman selling untaxed cigarettes. A citizen died in the skirmish.

This day is 2/28 and largely remembered as the beginning of a 40 year period of martial law in Taiwan. I recommend visiting the 228 museum in Taipei's peace park. Even though the current government, KMT, revised the history in this museum to downplay the fact that 20,000 people went missing in Taiwan during this period, the museum still tells a great story. It's great because the story wouldn't exist at all in a place without free speech, such as China.