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Legalize It All

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Re: Legalize It All

#171

Post by rayiner »

qbit wrote: post #167
rayiner wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to "modulate [your] . . . mind" is why so many people (80-90% when it comes to drugs besides marijuana), oppose drug legalization. Human society has barely learned to cope with the range of neurological behavior naturally present in the population. It's not unreasonable to be afraid of what might happen when you throw new chemicals into the mix. It's important to remember that most people think the opposi…

> And as long as we live in a democracy, they're entitled to structure their society as they see fit. I strongly disagree. There are certain human rights that should not be able to be voted away in a democracy. I believe that the right to modulate our own minds as we see fit belongs in this category.

People aren't "modulating their minds" in isolation. Drug use has an external impact on the families, friends, employers, and coworkers of those using drugs. Drug use affects the ability of drug users to abide by social norms imposed upon everyone. In a developed nation with a safety net, drug use might even implicate society's need to rescue those who can't work or fall ill from drug use.

Re: Legalize It All

#172

Post by Dr_tldr »

qbit wrote: post #167
rayiner wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability to "modulate [your] . . . mind" is why so many people (80-90% when it comes to drugs besides marijuana), oppose drug legalization. Human society has barely learned to cope with the range of neurological behavior naturally present in the population. It's not unreasonable to be afraid of what might happen when you throw new chemicals into the mix. It's important to remember that most people think the opposi…

> And as long as we live in a democracy, they're entitled to structure their society as they see fit. I strongly disagree. There are certain human rights that should not be able to be voted away in a democracy. I believe that the right to modulate our own minds as we see fit belongs in this category.

But most people would pick the will of the majority making some bad decisions than the absolute dictatorship that would be needed to enforce a highly subjective list of human rights.

Re: Legalize It All

#173

Post by msandford »

rayiner wrote: post #171
qbit wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And as long as we live in a democracy, they're entitled to structure their society as they see fit. I strongly disagree. There are certain human rights that should not be able to be voted away in a democracy. I believe that the right to modulate our own minds as we see fit belongs in this category.

People aren't "modulating their minds" in isolation. Drug use has an external impact on the families, friends, employers, and coworkers of those using drugs. Drug use affects the ability of drug users to abide by social norms imposed upon everyone. In a developed nation with a safety net, drug use might even implicate society's need to rescue those who can't work or fall ill from drug use.

> Drug use has an external impact on the families, friends, employers, and coworkers of those using drugs.

It's not illegal for me to be a sober (or drunk) asshole. Nor is it illegal for me to be sober (or drunk) and just decide not to go to work, consequences be damned. People are allowed to get drunk legally, despite the statistically increased propensity for violence, douchebaggery, etc. What makes alcohol "good" and drugs "bad"? Nothing more than tradition, as far as I can tell.

You're not making a great argument for why drug use should continue to be illegal.

Re: Legalize It All

#174

Post by user_0001 »

polshaw wrote: post #163
md224 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone else get almost irrationally angry about this? I HATE that the freedom to modulate our own minds was taken away from us by these awful politicians for such terrible reasons. Not only has the War on Drugs ruined countless lives through incarceration and overdosing, but so many potentially helpful chemicals have been hidden away from society. It isn't just about getting "high"... it's about unleashing our f…

Try being in the UK right now. The government have even given up the pretence that it has anything to do with harm-- every unapproved psychoactive substance on earth is about to be banned from sale/import. Be thankful at least you are dealing with a blacklist and not a (very short) whitelist! The whitelist being; tea, coffee, alcohol, tobacco/nicotine, in addition to prescription medication.

true, but on the other hand you can get caught with 1-2 grams of any powder, less than an oz of cannabis and nothing will come of it.

Anything you can argue in court is personal (which is quite a lot) and at worst you are looking at a few hours of community service in most cases.

Re: Legalize It All

#175

Post by bobwaycott »

rayiner wrote: post #171
qbit wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And as long as we live in a democracy, they're entitled to structure their society as they see fit. I strongly disagree. There are certain human rights that should not be able to be voted away in a democracy. I believe that the right to modulate our own minds as we see fit belongs in this category.

People aren't "modulating their minds" in isolation. Drug use has an external impact on the families, friends, employers, and coworkers of those using drugs. Drug use affects the ability of drug users to abide by social norms imposed upon everyone. In a developed nation with a safety net, drug use might even implicate society's need to rescue those who can't work or fall ill from drug use.

Your argument easily applies to alcohol, prescription medications, and hell, even obesity. There's nothing here unique to drugs that are causing the problems you're decrying.

Re: Legalize It All

#176

Post by Trundle »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #147
oldmanjay wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you subject to the misapprehension that production cost is the primary factor in pricing?

Production cost is a primary factor in pricing in industries having the characteristic of "perfect competition". For example, in the farming industry, the price of wheat is primarily determined by production cost, while influenced by other factors. You can read about characteristics associated with perfect competition on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition#Basic_stru... If drug use and drug-m…

Wheat is not a good comparison because it's mostly not consumer facing. Consumers care for more things in their purchases than just the raw good. Your alcohol example IS a good example. Consumers aren't just buying a beverage that intoxicates them that doesn't taste terrible. They pay a premium for brand, image, and to a large extent placebo quality. The cost of manufacturing for most alcoholic beverages has little to do with the final price.

Hell, even look at legal, non-recreational drugs. There can be an identical generic version. There can be an accredited medical professional standing right there saying "they're the same thing" and people will still opt for name brand.

I'm certain that if drugs were legalised, all that extra cost from being illegal would go straight in to marketing budgets and people will be buying the lsd equivalent of $300 bottles of wine or vodka that comes in creative packaging.

Re: Legalize It All

#177

Post by rayiner »

msandford wrote: post #173
rayiner wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't "modulating their minds" in isolation. Drug use has an external impact on the families, friends, employers, and coworkers of those using drugs. Drug use affects the ability of drug users to abide by social norms imposed upon everyone. In a developed nation with a safety net, drug use might even implicate society's need to rescue those who can't work or fall ill from drug use.

> Drug use has an external impact on the families, friends, employers, and coworkers of those using drugs. It's not illegal for me to be a sober (or drunk) asshole. Nor is it illegal for me to be sober (or drunk) and just decide not to go to work, consequences be damned. People are allowed to get drunk legally, despite the statistically increased propensity for violence, douchebaggery, etc. What makes alcohol "good"…

I'm not making any argument why drug use should be illegal. I'm making an argument for why the public should be entitled to decide whether drug use is legal or illegal. I also think, given your examples, the public should also be entitled to decide whether alcohol should be illegal.

Re: Legalize It All

#178

Post by Ericson2314 »

I'm curious what HN thinks about the author's point that drug-distribution is state-controlled. I agree---capitalism only works in arenas where the actors act (decently) rationally, and would-be markets where a significant portion of consumption is by addicts doesn't meet that test.

I'm also curious if anyone thinks such a end-game is politically possible in the US. Or is the profit motive + mistrust of government the only coalition capable of out-hustling our puritan tendencies politically?

Re: Legalize It All

#179

Post by newjersey »

bobwaycott wrote: post #175
rayiner wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't "modulating their minds" in isolation. Drug use has an external impact on the families, friends, employers, and coworkers of those using drugs. Drug use affects the ability of drug users to abide by social norms imposed upon everyone. In a developed nation with a safety net, drug use might even implicate society's need to rescue those who can't work or fall ill from drug use.

Your argument easily applies to alcohol, prescription medications, and hell, even obesity. There's nothing here unique to drugs that are causing the problems you're decrying.

If we ban drugs, I think it should also apply to jackasse or daredevils. People (including children) should not climb tall trees or scale the Brooklyn Bridge with no reason. Why should anyone get subsidized medical care (and it is subsidized even if they pay for it) for falling off a tree that they had no business climbing? In the same train of thought, maybe we ought to close down all amusement parks and only allow people to drive to work or to go buy groceries. People driving or riding the bus puts them at risk of accidents and society suffers from these accidents.
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