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Legalize It All

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Re: Legalize It All

#91
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I am very liberal (classical sense) on many issues, including guns, you can't compare drugs with guns. Much more meaningful to compare hand guns with explosives and other weapons, and drugs with alcohol and generally self-harm.

There is essentially no difference between drugs and guns. - Guns can be used for self-harm. - Drugs can be used to harm others. Why aren't people ready to accept that people will die?

Pencils can be used to harm others.

There's a big difference between "can be used to" and "is designed to".

Re: Legalize It All

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prohibition has caused more harm than good, lack of gun control has caused more harm than good, outlawing encryption would cause more harm than good. There is nothing logically inconsistent about holding these views.

I think the claim is that these views aren't held for utilitarian reasons, rather they are held for ideological reasons (ie freedom). In fact, if we want a pure utilitarian viewpoint we ma find the East Asian model where you get shot for selling drugs to yield the most quantifiable value.

No, nobody is talking about banning guns for ideological reasons. These are all positions based on pragmaticism, and they have great arguments to back them up. The best, actually.

Re: Legalize It All

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is but a tiny shadow of the profitability of the drug industry. Legalised, the wealthy can own it and funnel money to themselves, and Uncle Sam can have a nice big bite. Here comes the money.

Legalized, this industry will collapse, as drugs would be very cheap. The real production costs of most drugs are minuscule. Their high market prices are entirely due to their illegality.

Are you subject to the misapprehension that production cost is the primary factor in pricing?

Re: Legalize It All

#94
"The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

While I enjoy the recent surge in popularity of such a movement, my primary issue with drug policy is that it is unconstitutional, or at leasty arguably so. I fail to see a properly explained distinction between drug X and $ANYOBJECT Y when it comes to any governments ability to restrict a person from it. Whats the difference between caffiene and mj and alcohol? What about mj and harder drugs? What about harder drugs and two cans of coke a day? A person can be addicted to anything, (not to ignore the chemical/biological addictive properties) so what is to prevent any object from becoming a danger to the person or those around theme? To me this seems to be the core foundation upon which anti-drug persons base their argument. ie. "Once a person is addicted, they are likely to become a criminal and violate other peoples rights, so it's the governments duty to prevent that!".

To me though, it's not the governments duty to essentially engage in pre-crime criminalization. We all know about the private prison industry, but what gets me the most is that people in prison for non-violent drug charges are almost there, not because the drug itself was a crime, but because the underlying, implied logic is that they were about to become criminals anyway.

All of this flies in the face of the constitution, for once it is admitted that it's the duty of government to protect a person against their own actions, very few serious objections can be advanced against further encroachments.

In essence the drug war is a huge slippery slope which only opens up our system for further degradation of fundamental rights.

Also, I would to point out, beyond and before what is proposed as a mostly racist basis for the drug laws, that the larger purpose for the original drug wars (Opium Wars I and II, misc smaller conflicts), were largely about two other factors that are far too often overlooked:

1. Black-markets = free flowing, unaccountable money. Even in the modern times, this is a favorite of the three letters, to get black budget money thats outside the oversight of congress. If there isn't a blackmarket, you simply create one by buying off the politicians to make something illegal.

2. Similar to the racists vein, but more as a tool of control of the masses. while I have no problem constitutionally with legalization, the national security implications of "opiating the masses" are not to be ignored. The state of the Chinese population after introduction of mass quantities of opium as a good example of this done as a deliberate strategy.

As an aside, at one time I bought into the Dupont/Hemp conspiracy, but have since been able to find very little to no evidence to support this claim, so just a word of warning to any others who have fallen for it, that you should try to find some sources (and don't forget to share them if you do!)

Re: Legalize It All

#95

I'm completely against the war on drugs for most of the reasons stated in this article, but I find it's blaming of Nixon and racial/ideological politics as the worst most unproductive form of cynicism. As if there are no well meaning, well founded reasons to outlaw drugs. People often forget that poor, minority neighborhoods were often instrumental in getting tough drug laws passed. Because they often faced the brunt…

Do you have sources for this? My gut reaction is that your claim that tough drug laws that targeted poor and minority communities wouldn't have passed without the support of those communities seems false. These communities have little political power, and the laws would not have passed without the support of the economic and political elite.

Re: Legalize It All

#96
post #3

We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course…

I want to disagree a little on this. I won't disagree that the 'war on drugs' is out of control, largely mismanaged, and likely unnecessary. What I do want to say is I think it's a bit unfair to say "It never was about fighting drug use or preventing the harm it can do." I think it's fair to say the funding and huge catalyst for the war on drugs started in Miami in the 80's. During this time where was a ridiculous am…

I am confused here, the massive arming by the drug pushers happened only in a prohibited world. Yes, the DEA was perhaps not ready or was expecting Mr.Machine Gun to show up, but if 18th amendment and Al Capone were any lesson, they should know better.

Re: Legalize It All

#97
post #3

We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course…

The only problem with that version of history is that both drugs were illegal from the 1930s or earlier, and the controlled substances act of 1970 was introduced and passed by Democrat controlled house and senate.

Re: Legalize It All

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalized, this industry will collapse, as drugs would be very cheap. The real production costs of most drugs are minuscule. Their high market prices are entirely due to their illegality.

Yes, of course, just as the alcohol industry did. Nobody makes any money selling alcohol.

Well... to be pedantic, the alcohol isn't what you're paying for in most cases - it's the image, the lifestyle, the story.

Would we see the same phenomenon with generic diacetylmorphine and artisinal heroin? That would certainly be amusing...

Re: Legalize It All

#99

I'm completely against the war on drugs for most of the reasons stated in this article, but I find it's blaming of Nixon and racial/ideological politics as the worst most unproductive form of cynicism. As if there are no well meaning, well founded reasons to outlaw drugs. People often forget that poor, minority neighborhoods were often instrumental in getting tough drug laws passed. Because they often faced the brunt…

People often forget that poor, minority neighborhoods were often instrumental in getting tough drug laws passed. Because they often faced the brunt of the criminal effect of large numbers of drug users. When a working class mom gets her kid's bike stolen by a junkie, she's not too interested in contemplating rehabilitation, she's just mad and wants her bike back and the asshole punished.

This completely contradicts my understanding of how civics works in the real world. Poor, minority, working-class moms do not trust the government, police, or laws to work in their best interests, and do not push to get "tough drug laws passed". They believe such laws would be used as weapons against their families and communities. Even if you debate the accuracy of this belief, the impact that #BlackLivesMatter is having on the current election means there is no debating the widespread nature of this belief.

However, politically influential interest groups using "working class mom gets her kid's bike stolen by a junkie" as justification for tough drug laws—that sure is consistent with my understanding. So is duping us into thinking the poor minority neighborhoods are in favor of such laws.

Re: Legalize It All

#100

After telling the BBC in December that “if you fight a war for forty years and don’t win, you have to sit down and think about other things to do that might be more effective,” Colombian president Juan Manuel Santos legalized medical marijuana by decree. In November, the Mexican Supreme Court elevated the debate to a new plane by ruling that the prohibition of marijuana consumption violated the Mexican Constitution b…

As a counterpoint, compulsory free education for all children is a public good that couldn't be accomplished or sustained for decades without the state intruding upon the personal autonomy of the child and the parent (and childless taxpayers.)
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