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Why we should fear a cashless world

theguardian.com

151–160 of 257 posts

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#151
post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

There will always be ways to evade taxes and the problem with Italy, Greece and other southern societies is not technical but a weak government which can't impose the already existing laws to their citizens, public workers and politicians themselves. Going cashless is not an excuse for an incompetent tax office and Ministry of Finance.

I don't know for Italy, but in France, you litteraly can't start most business without doing 20% of your money off black market.

Once you are big enough, it gets easier and you can go full legal, but to start, it's terrible.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#152
post #95
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>let's remember that this kind of hidden economy has a huge cost for society and it's very widespread in southern Europe. Any where, where there are cash transactions this is an issue. In India, apart from salaried people taxed at source almost anybody else rarely if ever pays taxes. Its assumed taxes are only what stupid people pay. And since they make up for a huge vote bank, any move to introduce reforms for cash…

Mostly I think that peoples support for paying taxes is proportional to the perceived value they receive from them, and how fairly they are being applied (c.f. Denmark vs. USA - and note that "perceived" is important, and subject to manipulation) I don't know the details, but plausibly could you argue that India's real problem lies in government inefficiency and/or corruption?

>>plausibly could you argue that India's real problem lies in government inefficiency and/or corruption?

Your are assuming corruption is an phenomenon that is generated in total isolation without other factors contributing to it.

Both government inefficiency and corruption have roots in lack of accountability.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#153
It's nice to see the Guardian writing negatively about the cashless push, and they hit the main points.

To me, the main danger of our time is totalitarian governments overreaching in reaction to changes in threat-actor models, and hence most of my primary concerns revolve around the particular issues that touch upon this point. There are two main issues I have with the push to the cashless society.

1. Lack of anonymity. Cash serves as a mostly anonymous medium of exchange, which encourages the free flow thereof. That being said though, one of the primary reasons you might want anonymity is from government overreach. For example, there is evidence that in the increasing surveillance panopticon, the gov wants to know what you are reading and purchasing for reading. If you use a cc to buy a book at a bookstore, that is easily tracked back to you and could in the future be used to put you on $list. While cash isn't perfectly anonymous, it ups the level of effort to find out (pulling cctv recording to correlate purchase to person).

The lack of anonymity has been my primary disagreement with Max Keiser regarding bitcoin as well. To me, I can very easily see a currency upset on the horizon which is then used to push cashless on the society as a new currency model.

2. Revocation of access/control of assets. In a similar vein to police forces using confiscation as a budgetary padding tool, I can far too easily see the same being applied to cashless currencies. More than that though, is the ability to access the option at all in the first place. As an example for this, I give you the national bank blacklist database. For some people, suddenly being blacklisted by banks can create all kinds of problems, because much of our society relies on banking functions. I fear the same type of blacklist with little oversight could be applied to a cashless currency, to the point that, lets say you were a dissident, suddenly you lose all your money and can't open a new account. If everything is cashless, how do you buy bread?

The article itself touches on the surface of these matters, but I think there needs to be a much deeper and deliberative discussion about the potential dangers, and benefits, of the push towards a cashless society.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#154
post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

> cost for society You meant "cost for government," right? It sounds like the slice of society that gets the cash discount is benefiting greatly from this "hidden economy." Saving 50% on a venue is a big win for the newlywed's pocketbook, leaving more money in their pocket to buy goods for their new household.

Well, it's also a cost for private society:

Imagine you're an IT contractor that needs to bill international customers for your services. In Italy you have to pay very high taxes since being an independent worker you fall in the same category of those who can easily dodge taxes although you're not in exactly the same position: the government treats you as a thief by default and puts you up to a taxation level that makes sense only once that it's assumed that you will only declare about half of your revenue.

This is actually a big problem and has severe repercussions on the ability to spawn new businesses in Italy.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#155
post #24

A good conversation of "why we should fear a cashless world" should at least mention the Book of Revelation and the Book of Daniel in The Bible. It would be negligent to omit them from discussion like this.

A good conversation about a real world subject would ignore allegorical political writing from 2000 years ago posing as mythology because it isn't relevant or insightful.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#156
"Cash means total financial inclusion"

The author doesn't know what financial inclusion means. In fact financial inclusion has seen a boon thanks to cashless payments like m-pesa in Kenya. Thanks to not having to lug around cash and maintain expensive bank branches and offices, some of the poorest countries have made great strides in furthering financial inclusion.

People want to eliminate €500, not €5. But even if they eliminated all cash I doubt there would be a catastrophe of the type the article claims; people will use different implementations of the same technologies to find privacy and convenience. In fact wives married to alcoholics in Africa often prefer to store their money in cashless wallets and saving groups, because it is easier to hide from their husbands who might find the cash under the mattress.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#157

I've been "cash only" for 8 months now and I love it. Of course I need a credit card if I buy something on Amazon or a one-off web store, but the point is to move as many transactions offline as possible. There are so many privacy benefits to using cash, but one that really resonates with me is the physical nature of it. When you pay for something with cash, you can feel the transaction of money exchanging hands and…

Similar for me, but I resisted using cards in real life from the beginning. I use them exclusively for internet transactions. I just don't like the idea of giving up a freedom of anonymity, yet I notice others are seemingly jumping at the chance. I'm not sure what I would do if I lived in a city where electronic transactions are a requirement for public transport. I guess I would walk as much as possible... or even m…

    I'm not sure what I would do if I lived in a city
    where electronic transactions are a requirement for
    public transport.
Step into my office ;) There are many things you can do, walking is the best one. You can pay for Metrocards in NYC with cash though. The machines still accept them.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#158
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. I understood that freeway (one of the most expensive roads in the world) was $1000 per foot. $5M per mile. I would expect asphalt to be much less. Here's a link: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/policy/costs/costs-D7.pd... Florida says 2-lane roadway is $3.3M per mile. So a few hundred feed, costing millions? Nonsense.

> So a few hundred feed, costing millions? Nonsense. 1. Your parent actually actively maintains a private road, and has probably done their research... 2. It costs them so much because they just have a single road, so they can't amortize the cost over an entire city or country of roadway. Public utilities tend toward monopoly for exactly this reason -- providing the utility to any small fraction of society is enormou…

Warm mixed asphalt roads should cost about $1M per mile. It's expensive, but it's not ludicrously expensive. If well done, in a warm environment, of low traffic, no truck levels, then you won't have to repave for upwards of a decade.

Source:

Maintenance a private road outside the USA. Labour is cheaper, however, everything else is more expensive so it balances out vs US numbers last time I checked.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I guess I'm curious about how Italy's system works then? It's an empirical question, how much money would I have to be offered to turn on a system of convenience and perhaps monetary discounts? (I'm not considering the downside of off the book transactions as a consumer, I realize).

I'm assuming for it to work in Italy, you would have to make the reward for reporting non-compliance higher than any discount a business owner could offer.

It would presumably need to be several orders of magnitude higher as I would probably buy more donuts than I would submit non-compliance reports. And let's not forget it's the government that's running this - they don't necessarily need to turn a huge (or any) profit to make this work in the long term.

  Donut with receipt:    $  1.49
  Donut without receipt: $  1.00

  Taxable reward from
  gov't for reporting
  non-compliance:        $500.00

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#160
post #24

A good conversation of "why we should fear a cashless world" should at least mention the Book of Revelation and the Book of Daniel in The Bible. It would be negligent to omit them from discussion like this.

A good conversation about a real world subject would ignore allegorical political writing from 2000 years ago posing as mythology because it isn't relevant or insightful.

Cashless societies are advanced as a solution to problems of moral decay. E.g., doing business under the table, not reporting taxes due to governments, or performing an illicit transaction. In many ways, advocacy of a cashless society is admittance that people are dishonest, and therefore all transactions should be made electronic. Instead of strengthening individual morality, workaround solutions are proposed -- like those trying to fix a morally bankrupt society via algorithmic systems that require no morality whatsoever.

So whether it be a government sponsored currency, perhaps a world currency, to stop bad behavior and bad actors; or a public blockchain (Anarcho-capitalism). We as a society are now faced with a moral decision centered around privacy and how much of it should be entrusted to governments. Notice how the thesis of cryptocurrencies is trust-less systems, because people / governments are assumed to be nefarious by default. That is a big nuance being ignored. Ultimately (IMO) this is an issue of morality. One which benefits from reading history, analogy, literary examples or anything for that matter. We are seeing a tug of war between citizenry and governments in the financial and cryptographic realms. This is relevant.

The financial system and notions of a cashless society foster a growing anti-government sentiment. It is obvious in this and other threads; a strong pushback against government, which all relate back to the Books mentioned. It is difficult to ignore the religious or moral contexts of this topic.

Especially peculiar when Bitcoin has already established a cult following, complete with a pseudo-church which evangelizes. Not to mention it was created by a supposedly anti-government (Satoshi) person "yet to be revealed". Is playful conjecture not fair discussion? You can clearly see companies are racing to research cryptocurrencies, artificial intelligence, and what same may argue as anti-government measures.

So, I think a real world subject -- is subject -- to everything of the real world. Like the written Words of The Bible and anything else that exists for good interpretation. When 2+ Billion people identify as Christian, and they (potentially) push back against cashless societies, it will become exceptionally relevant.

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