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Why we should fear a cashless world

theguardian.com

131–140 of 257 posts

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#131
post #106
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. If you don't believe the government has any role to play in, say, paving roads, maintaining bridges, etc, then there's no "cost for society". Well, until the bridges start falling down, anyway...

Roads and bridges are fine. 700 hammers for the military maybe not. I worked as project manager for a contractor doing public works at one point. The government (at least in the US and probably everywhere) wastes a staggering amount of money. Not saying the government doesn't need funding. They do. But they could certainly do a lot more with less.

They need better internal auditors. If you just cut their budget alone, it doesn't decrease waste or fraud. To change the percentage of waste requires accountability for wasting.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#132
post #53

Here in Italy the big issue is that many business will just not declare cash transactions. It's pretty common not to be given a receipt when buying a coffee and often when you visit a doctor they'll say: do you want the invoice or a discount? A couple of friends got married recently and I found out they paid over half of what the owed in cash to get pretty decent discount. So before we talk privacy and company let's…

So what is it then that makes this kind of fraud common in Southern Europe but practically nonexistent in Germany? (judging from my experience)

Read Tacitus' writings on Germania. While the Mediterranean and Near Eastern peoples were issuing violently long-winded, and ultimately hollow, discourses on the subject of ethics, Northern peoples were holding to faithfully monogamous marriages and living in small communities in comparative peace. What the Southern peoples preached the Northern peoples lived.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#133
With a cashless society, there are third party entities that decide:

1) if the payment will be honored ( legal pot growers / legal sex workers / donations to wikileaks have this problem

2) the payment will be possible ( is the bank systems functioning )

3) how much of a cut the third-party will take from the transaction (visa, mastercard, but also app stories 30% cut)

4) who gets to know what was purchased (your bank shares information with the government)

5) who gets to know who made the purchase

6) who can access money: minors can't have bank accounts/etc, does someone have access to a banking system at all - lots of people can only cash checks through pay-day lenders

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And replace those cashiers with people who have other job titles to manage inventory shrinkage. There's no getting around the fact that you need eyes near the doors to make sure that everything gets paid for, and you need enough eyes to monitor the traffic: more parallel traffic, more eyes needed. (Anecdotally, I see more staff at self-serve checkouts than at cash registers in stores that have both, yet the cashier l…

I avoid self checkout - slow and inconvenient. But it's just a matter of improving the technology: we'll get there eventually.

I avoid self-checkout because the entire machine is usually set up around the assumption that I will try to walk out of the store without paying for one or more items, or by futzing the bar codes so that I pay $1 for a $30 beef roast.

The self-checkout technology will never improve as long as that assumption remains. If you can't trust the customer to not steal a pack of gum, you can't trust the customer to not steal an entire beef tenderloin.

The professional cashier does not need to keep every damned item on a giant scale after scanning it, because they are an agent of the store, and presumably trustworthy enough to notice and stop shoplifters and scammers. And they usually don't have to halt the entire checkout process and wait for a manager to come by and restart it whenever anything even mildly out of the ordinary happens, such as using a coupon.

You can't improve the technology when the premises are wrong. And the premise is that you can turn a grocery store into a glorified vending machine.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> require receipts for all transactions, allow consumers to report business who do not give receipts You incentivize compliance through monetary awards for reporting offenders.

So I guess I'm curious about how Italy's system works then? It's an empirical question, how much money would I have to be offered to turn on a system of convenience and perhaps monetary discounts? (I'm not considering the downside of off the book transactions as a consumer, I realize).

I'm assuming for it to work in Italy, you would have to make the reward for reporting non-compliance higher than any discount a business owner could offer.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#136
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By storing your cash in a bank, you are exposed to both the bank's insolvency and the devaluation of the currency by a central bank. By keeping it under your mattress, you are only exposed to the latter. Of course, by not storing your money in a bank, you are 100% responsible for securing it, which is the primary drawback that most people face. You are also more directly exposed to fluctuations in currency valuation…

> By storing your cash in a bank, you are exposed to both the bank's insolvency Only for very large amounts, at least in Europe, the central bank insures your money from its own reserves in case of bank failure up to a certain amount, AFAIK typically in the hundreds of thousands of €/local equivalent.

If a bunch of banks go under at once, or even one big bank with a sufficient number of claims, who's to say the insurers will even be able to pay out on that? Nonetheless, I always find this type of apocalyptic thinking to be humorous - why do people think that their cash will be worth anything if the financial system collapses? Another motivation would be if you are concerned about having your assets frozen.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You meant "cost for government," right? Well, depends on if you want a government capable of affording to pay for public education, roads, military, etc. I mean if you care about none of these things and want the government completely destroyed, a 50% revenue cut might seem okay to you.

Of course I care about those things. I simply think that government is not required to provide them.

Sounds good in theory, but practice that's silly. No business buys $5 billion bridges, like the new one being built now in NY cruising the Hudson. No business buys $5 billion airports, like Denver International, and the latest estimate to renovate LaGuardia. That requires a sovereign to borrow that much money in a way that lenders trust will be repaid.

If you want to argue governments act in part to facilitate waste and fraud, i.e. those airports and bridges don't really cost that much, I agree, but unless there's aggressive auditing attached to every project, I see no way around it. Enough people are sufficiently dishonest and greedy they will take if they can get away with it.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm I don't remember receiving many receipts in China. I spent 3 months there over two occasions a couple years ago. Taiwan's implementation appears more successful to me. Fapiao means receipt, so that makes sense. There is some required hardware or software but doesn't seem any more cumbersome than a credit card machine and printer. Nearly every shop has them in TW. Edit: reading further I see China is rolling out t…

That's because you have to actively ask for it. If you don't, they never (almost) give it to you, as business buy those fapiaos from gov. We asked for them quite often and they gave them each time. Total, we won 2 cans of Coke and maybe 10 yuan :) Fun fact - fapiaos you get might be fake. Once I got fake fapiao, printed from fake printer, in fake taxi. I know it's fake because I tried to validate it online (there's s…

Ah okay. That's not so surprising I guess. Sometimes I feel TW has some advantage over China in being small. Like a startup, it can implement and pivot easily.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#139
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No, I don't believe the government is necessary to do those things." I live on a very long (two miles) private road that I jointly build and maintain with an association, etc. There is no government role whatsoever, and we even have bridges. So it would appear that my experience validates your libertarian fantasy world. Look - we're actually doing it! I've got sour news for you. Even a wealthy, well educated collect…

Hm. I understood that freeway (one of the most expensive roads in the world) was $1000 per foot. $5M per mile. I would expect asphalt to be much less. Here's a link: http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/policy/costs/costs-D7.pd... Florida says 2-lane roadway is $3.3M per mile. So a few hundred feed, costing millions? Nonsense.

> So a few hundred feed, costing millions? Nonsense.

1. Your parent actually actively maintains a private road, and has probably done their research...

2. It costs them so much because they just have a single road, so they can't amortize the cost over an entire city or country of roadway. Public utilities tend toward monopoly for exactly this reason -- providing the utility to any small fraction of society is enormously expensive.

Make no mistake, natural monopoly is what happens when you privatize utilities. Ever met a Comcast customer who feels anything short of contempt toward Comcast? Now imagine dealing with Comcast any time you need to drive to the grocery store. Or even leave your house.

3. Parent's numbers actually make sense when compared to Florida's, once you realize Florida has an entire state over which it can amortize costs.

Re: Why we should fear a cashless world

#140
I am not one to argue that technology solves the problems of the poor. But, there are lots of holes in this argument:

1. The unbanked already exist in a world that expects them to be banked. Almost all jobs in America are paid in checks or direct deposit. Checks are useless to people without bank accounts. They then have to spend time and money getting the check turned into cash at a check cashing place, like Amscot.

So moving to electronic banking would actually HELP these people. If you really rely on cash, then you are at a disadvantage since most jobs dont pay in cash.

Yes, there are real obstacles in the way of these people getting bank accounts. Education, time, documentation, etc. But everyday someone continues to remain unbanked, they are inconveniencing themselves in many ways.

2. Cash is already dead to a lot of people (in 1st world countries), so surveillance is already possible. Governments, banks, and payment processors ALREADY have access to this information for a large number of people. If this is a large concern, the author should be tackling the fact that this is on-going, not that it might happen in the future.

But it does seem true that killing cash will open up new demographics to the same surveillance.

3. Bankruptcy is not a tool used by very poor people. Its often used by middle class and upper class people who deal with the finance world. I think this article has a very poor understanding of what "poor" means, even in a 1st world context.

4. This whole article is based off of bad solutions. Keeping cash around so that some people will be saved by withdrawing their money in the next financial crisis is NOT the solution to financial crises. Better regulation, management, and transparency is.

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