Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#111

Post by vidarh » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 1:42 PM UTC

notalaser wrote: post #94

dchest wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, every giving would be stealing. If I gave you something, you didn't steal it from me. Likewise, if I gave you the right to impersonate me in particular circumstances, it's not a criminal offense if you do.

It depends on where you are in the world, but in most places in the civilized world, criminal law does not work that way. If something is illegal, we cannot sign a contract that says it's ok between you and me, and magically make it legal. E.g. if I kill someone, the state will prosecute me for murder, regardless of whether or not that guy and I signed a contract that said it was fine. If impersonating someone is a c…

The point is that the specific criteria defining what is criminal can include whether or not there is consent.

A contract can establish consent.

E.g. if I go into your house without permission and take stuff, then it is theft. If I have a contract saying that I have permission to go into your house and take stuff, then it is not.

I have not contracted my away from something illegal. The contract has established consent, which meant the criteria that otherwise would have made my actions criminal are not fulfilled.

> If impersonating someone is a criminal offense in a particular jurisdiction, then -- assuming that jurisdiction has a sane criminal code -- there is no way to make it legal through a contract.

That depends whether or not the criteria that needs to be met for it to be a crime requires lack of consent. If it requires lack of consent, then a contract can document that the consent has been given.

All jurisdictions I'm aware of (not a lawyer) have the concept of agents that may act on your behalf with consent. To what extent such agents can act using your name (with consent) vs. using their own name but on your behalf, varies greatly.

E.g. some places your agents (say a PA) will sign letters "[agents name] for and on behalf of [your name]" or similar, while other places they will use a signature stamp with your signature, or do "p.p. [their signature] [your printed name]" (the p.p. stands for "per procurationem"). Many other variations are in use, and how obvious signs there are that a document was not personally signed by the person the letter is from varies greatly.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#112

Post by icedchai » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 1:46 PM UTC

So what happened as a result? Anything?

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#113

Post by _asummers » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 1:47 PM UTC

notalaser wrote: post #94

dchest wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, every giving would be stealing. If I gave you something, you didn't steal it from me. Likewise, if I gave you the right to impersonate me in particular circumstances, it's not a criminal offense if you do.

It depends on where you are in the world, but in most places in the civilized world, criminal law does not work that way. If something is illegal, we cannot sign a contract that says it's ok between you and me, and magically make it legal. E.g. if I kill someone, the state will prosecute me for murder, regardless of whether or not that guy and I signed a contract that said it was fine. If impersonating someone is a c…

If Alice and Bob enter into a contract that says Alice will kill Carol for $1m, can Bob sue her for breach of contract if she does not? Or does the legality of the contract supercede the body of the contract such that the contract is void?

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#114

Post by ams6110 » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 1:47 PM UTC

sqeaky wrote: post #106

wojt_eu wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't it make it impossible under California law to have an agent that impersonate me? Have them tweet from my account, reply to emails in my name etc.

I bet you can hire a tax preparer in California. That is someone hired to represent you and do things on your behalf for tax purposes. That is a highly regulated financial specialist though. In principle it sounds similar. The details do matter though. Did they provide reasonable explanation of what they were doing? Did they attempt to do this in secret? Did they misrepresent anything? Are they any laws saying a pers…

They also don't sign the tax form as you. They sign it as a "preparered by" and you sign it as the taxpayer.

Most tax preparers are liable for their own mistakes, but not for omitting anything you didn't tell them.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#115

Post by _asummers » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

troels wrote: post #95

lordnacho wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I regularly get messages from startups who are interested in me on AL. Every time I answer, I click the "I'm interested" button, and I add a message saying that there might be something up with the site. I never hear anything back even though the other side initiated the interest. I also get an email from an AL engineer now and again asking if things are working. Not sure they are getting my responses, because they s…

You reply back to the startups that there is something wrong with the AL site?

Pretty sure he meant that he gets messages from two groups of people, startups and engineers, replies to both, receives responses from neither.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#116

Post by davismwfl » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

johnchristopher wrote: post #36

Animats wrote: post #26

This might be "false personation" under California law. See California penal code 529.[1] This is slightly different from identity theft. It's a criminal offense. The key elements of this offense are that someone else impersonated you in some way, and they derived some benefit from doing so. Because this is a criminal offense, AngelList's TOS's arbitration clause does not apply. You can file a police report with the…

> he key elements of this offense are that someone else impersonated you in some way, and they derived some benefit from doing so. Is Facebook usage of their user's profile pic for advertisement purpose a false impersonation too ? (I don't know if it's still in practice or if it was ever implemented)

If Facebook uses your picture for advertisement purposes it generally falls under "using your likeness" and is covered under their terms of service about advertising. They are not impersonating you because they are not claiming to be you, they are instead using your likeness to promote either themselves or their clients.

This is similar to agreements you might sign with an employer, photographer or other third party so they can use your photo in an ad or as part of marketing material. And from what I understand (IANAL) the requirements vary from state to state in the US and obviously outside the US. Although there are blanket terms that cover it from what I have seen.

BTW -- Anytime you have professional photos done, this is something you should always look for and make sure you are comfortable with the terms they lay out in their "Agreement". Many have boiler plate in their agreements that states they can use your likeness without paying you for it and without prior written consent. I just went through this when looking for a professional photographer when we had some family photos done as I don't want anyone using images of my family or kids.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#117

Post by btbuildem » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 1:54 PM UTC

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #32

Animats wrote: post #26

This might be "false personation" under California law. See California penal code 529.[1] This is slightly different from identity theft. It's a criminal offense. The key elements of this offense are that someone else impersonated you in some way, and they derived some benefit from doing so. Because this is a criminal offense, AngelList's TOS's arbitration clause does not apply. You can file a police report with the…

Unless you have authorized them to do this under the Terms and Conditions of course.....

If I authorize you to kill someone, you're still on hook for committing the murder.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#118

Post by ams6110 » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 1:55 PM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #78

throwaway049 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying assisted suicide is illegal, but _can_ be made OK by a contract? That's not the case in England. By contrast, proxy voting is fine if you register your proxy with the local electoral office in advance.

No, I'm wondering why would there be a separate law if it was automatically covered by not being able to consent your way out of being murdered.

Probably because it's not murder, it's suicide. Assisted suicide is generally not asking another person to kill you, it's asking another person to set up some situation so you can more easily kill yourself. And though suicide is illegal, such laws further define that assisting another person to commit suicide is also illegal.

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#119

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 2:07 PM UTC

JupiterMoon wrote: post #35

nakedrobot2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you have authorized them to do this under the Terms and Conditions of course.....

No! If an offence is criminal it can't be magically made OK by a contract. I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: AngelList told my employer that I'd updated my profile

#120

Post by Zak » Mon, Mar 21, 2016, 2:24 PM UTC

_asummers wrote: post #113

notalaser wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on where you are in the world, but in most places in the civilized world, criminal law does not work that way. If something is illegal, we cannot sign a contract that says it's ok between you and me, and magically make it legal. E.g. if I kill someone, the state will prosecute me for murder, regardless of whether or not that guy and I signed a contract that said it was fine. If impersonating someone is a c…

If Alice and Bob enter into a contract that says Alice will kill Carol for $1m, can Bob sue her for breach of contract if she does not? Or does the legality of the contract supercede the body of the contract such that the contract is void?

The court will not enforce the contract against Bob because it is illegal to do the act specified by the contract. Furthermore, Alice and Bob could both be prosecuted for conspiracy to commit murder.