This is an amazing project. Thank you for that post. I would love to find some teams working on this who are interested in adding junior level engineers.
DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
51–60 of 137 posts
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#52Starcraft is a game that is played with mouse and keyboard (or game controller on console). I think in order to say an AI has beat a human, it should have to use the same interface that a human uses. That's part of the definition of the game. In Go, anyone can place a stone as well as anyone else, it's deciding where to place a stone that's the game. In Starcraft, not everyone can control the interface to the game eq…
From the 2015 AIIDE Starcraft AI competition report[0].
> ""Why not StarCraft 2?"
> This is the question we always get asked when we tell people we are doing a BroodWar AI competition. This competition relies completely on BWAPI as a programming interface to BroodWar. BWAPI was created by reverse engineering BroodWar and relies on reading and writing to the program memory space of BroodWar in order to read data and issue commands to the game. Since any program that does this can essentially be seen as a map hack or cheat engine, Blizzard has told us that they don't want us to do anything similar for StarCraft 2. In fact, most of the StarCraft 2 EULA specifically deals with not modifying the program in any way. We are happy that Blizzard have allowed us to continue holding tournaments using BWAPI, and they have also helped out by providing prizes to the AIIDE tournament, however until their policy changes we will not be able to do the same for StarCraft 2."
[0] http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~cdavid/starcraftaicomp/report...
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#53Starcraft is a game that is played with mouse and keyboard (or game controller on console). I think in order to say an AI has beat a human, it should have to use the same interface that a human uses. That's part of the definition of the game. In Go, anyone can place a stone as well as anyone else, it's deciding where to place a stone that's the game. In Starcraft, not everyone can control the interface to the game eq…
But Brood War has been thoroughly explored, and is a much more stable target (SC2 is prone to game-shaking patches). Back when pro play was just ending, I was astonished by the level of play. While players may need a bit to practice against the AI, a good AI spurring more play is really exciting to me.
> (SC2 is prone to game-shaking patches)
It's something humans have to put up with, the AI should too?
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#54Well, anyone who says that advantage in micromanagement is not a big thing should see "Automaton 2000" videos. Given that automaton is a map script and thus can have virtually unlimited APM, it beats people from a horribly disadvantageous positions (40 banelings vs 21 marine [1], or 100 zerglings vs 20 sieged tanks [2]). [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXUOWXidcY0 [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKVFZ28ybQs
I agree. It's one of only areas the AI's have been hood at. Pathfinding and build orders being other two. AI should be limited to a specific number of actions a minute comparable with opposing player or best human champ. Then, we're grading it on its "thinking" instead of dexterity.
They better keep fog of war on too.
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#55Survey paper below introducing Starcrafy challenges plus all the AI's that failed to conquer humans.
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#56I think poker would also be a great challenge. It is a special game because as well as the math, you also have to understand your opponent and adjust accordingly. It'd be interesting to see weather DeepMind can beat professional poker players who have different playing styles.
My understanding is that limit Texas Holdem poker is essentially solved. No limit is a different thing though, one mistake and you could be done.
I think that's heads up limit texas holdem, not limit holdem in general.
e: ref--http://ai.cs.unibas.ch/_files/teaching/fs15/ki/material/ki02...
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#57Starcraft is a game that is played with mouse and keyboard (or game controller on console). I think in order to say an AI has beat a human, it should have to use the same interface that a human uses. That's part of the definition of the game. In Go, anyone can place a stone as well as anyone else, it's deciding where to place a stone that's the game. In Starcraft, not everyone can control the interface to the game eq…
From the 2015 AIIDE Starcraft AI competition report[0]. > ""Why not StarCraft 2?" > This is the question we always get asked when we tell people we are doing a BroodWar AI competition. This competition relies completely on BWAPI as a programming interface to BroodWar. BWAPI was created by reverse engineering BroodWar and relies on reading and writing to the program memory space of BroodWar in order to read data and i…
So why not use Matt's version for SC2 that doesn't provide map hacks?
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#58> StarCraft is closed source, making it quite challenging to run simulations. One of the techniques used by AlphaGo is reinforcement learning, which involves a huge amount of simulation. In order for DeepMind to overcome this limitation, it’s likely that novel abstractions of the state-space will need to be developed. For their atari work, deepmind was using raw pixel data from the screen. You could do something simi…
Game replays (including all the fun data like player clicks, unit selection, movements, and exact timing) are stored in an easily parsable format. https://github.com/GraylinKim/sc2reader/wiki/Replay-Format-H...
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#59Starcraft is a game that is played with mouse and keyboard (or game controller on console). I think in order to say an AI has beat a human, it should have to use the same interface that a human uses. That's part of the definition of the game. In Go, anyone can place a stone as well as anyone else, it's deciding where to place a stone that's the game. In Starcraft, not everyone can control the interface to the game eq…
> it should have to use the same interface that a human uses.
Yeah, I've followed Starcraft AI automation for a while. The people programming these AI systems have basically been creating individual unit AIs with a tiny bit of latency.
It's cool to watch but absolutely does not advance the game theory of Starcraft. If you actually had to ration moves, they would have to come up with quite interesting systems. I'd be fine with something borderline impossible like 500 APM - as fast as you can physically click buttons with 10 fingers. Not 2000 APM.
Re: DeepMind Challenges for StarCraft
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm more of a LoL guy, but i'd be excited to see this in action. I think it's actually an easier challenge than starcraft - the action space is much smaller and dodging/aiming AI already gives some players extreme advantages (against the TOS of course).
IMO the smaller action space/better defined win conditions is outweighed by the greater playstyle diversity: SC has 3 races while League and Dota have 100+ champions to understand the interactions with. How is an AI supposed to know that Tryndamere's ult has a 0.5 second cast time, but can't be interrupted by any CC? Personally, I think (all else being equal) Dota might be an easier starting point than League because…
This is incorrect as Starcraft has a much larger playstyle diversity than League. Every league game follows the same structure: with very high probability, one player will be top, one middle, and two bottom, with one jungler. Teams will farm with occasional gank attempts until the midgame, where there is a slow transition from farming to objective taking and teamfighting. This is relatively formulaic and easy to learn. In contrast, from the start of the game in starcraft, players can choose from a wide variety of strategies, ranging from early rush strategies (with low and high-tech variants), harass-and-expand strategies, greedy expand strategies, and safe expand strategies. Also, it must also construct a prior over strategies for its opponent that changes by map, as map properties change the viability of certain strategies.
Your example of script-users not attaining high ranking in online play for league of legends is also misguided. Because the action space in league is so much smaller than in starcraft, it is much easier to develop an AI with game strategy competency for league. Combine that AI with perfect mechanics, and human players should be falling very readily.