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Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

zdnet.com

41–50 of 133 posts

Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#41

I can't seem to understand if MSFT patents actually apply to the Android OS / AOSP or just to various firmware, middleware and software that OEM's use on their devices regardless of the OS in question. The AOSP license and 3rd party notifications do not mention Microsoft and the patents listed in Chinese doc are like vague in the usual patent-esque way. But in any case i don't really see the issue here, if MSFT gets…

> if MSFT gets royalties from these patents it would be irresponsible (to their shareholders, and employees) for them to ditch them Actively enforcing patents like these hurts Microsoft's relationship with developers, hardware manufacturers, the open source community etc.

Sadly that means that there is likely one group of people in MS saying, "enforcing these patents gives us a large revenue stream that we don't have to do anything to maintain" (except for paying lawyers, but lawyers probably form part of the core of this group).

On the other side, there is likely another group of people in MS saying "hey guys, if we give up this massive guaranteed cash flow we could receive an impossible-to-predict-or-measure amount of goodwill from ill-defined groups of hypothetical people who might all just hate us anyway no matter what we do, and even if it does make them like us more we're not sure if it will really make a difference in the long run."

Now, I would be squarely in the latter group, because I think it's the right thing to do and is consistent with the kind of company that MS appears to be trying to transform itself into, but I've gotta think that that's a very tough case to argue to anyone who is actually in a position to make that call and is therefore held responsible for the outcome. I would try to make a much more convincing argument than the strawman I presented, but since it's all about intangibles, someone with an opposing viewpoint could probably make just as convincing of a case by framing my intangibles as that strawman, and there's not a whole lot anyone could say to refute it.

It's a local maximum seen throughout the industry- I think there is a growing realization outside of the usual niches (open source advocates, HN readers, etc.) that software patents are doing more harm than good, but in the individual isolated cases it still comes down to people arguing internally that an organization should give up a guaranteed revenue stream in exchange for theoretical goodwill that may or may not actually benefit the company in any tangible way. Lots of people hate stupid patents but patent holders would rather change the system for everyone, than go out on a limb and make a sacrifice like that with no guarantee that their competitors would follow suit. I don't envy anyone trying to fight the good fight in that environment.

Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#42

I can't seem to understand if MSFT patents actually apply to the Android OS / AOSP or just to various firmware, middleware and software that OEM's use on their devices regardless of the OS in question. The AOSP license and 3rd party notifications do not mention Microsoft and the patents listed in Chinese doc are like vague in the usual patent-esque way. But in any case i don't really see the issue here, if MSFT gets…

"Google owns countless patents and Apple just might be the biggest patent troll in history and none of them seem to receive even remotely the same amount of scrutiny." Why would you face scrutiny for holding patents?

Patents are like nuclear weapons - they stay dangerous for a very long time, most who have them claim their primary function is to scare others who have them away from attacking them with theirs, but their actual function is to scare and extort anyone who doesn't have them into doing what the patent-holding assholes want. Of course we want to hold anyone who has them under careful scrutiny.

Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#43

> So, why are people still paying up rather than fighting? Because patent litigation is incredibly expensive. It's cheaper to pay a $5 to $15 per device licensing fee than to pay a small fortune and take even a remote chance of failure in court. > Samsung alone paid Microsoft a billion bucks to license its Android patents. So like, why didn't Samsung take them to court?

Maybe Samsung gets something out of it? Cross-patent licensing deal?

It's also worth noting that MicroSoft started looking for license payments while Samsung was still in court with Apple of patent issues. It's very possible they didn't want another large lawsuit.

Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#44
The best reason for Microsoft to stop leaching off vaguely applicable patents on smartphones is that their best chance at reviving their own smartphone business is with something along the lines of the Nokia X handsets, running Android, but with an emphasis on Microsoft's apps and ecosystem.

That won't fly without access to Google's proprietary apps and app store. Microsoft will need to bury this hatchet before they could get that licensing deal.

They have an SDK for this approach now, with Xamarin. Don't be surprised if they trade the patent revenue for another shot at phones.

Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#45
post #4

How did Motorola manage to push back while others caved?

And why didn't Google/Motorola fight the very existence of the patents?

What are you talking about? Google among others has been pretty active in lobbying for changes to the broken patent system

Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#46
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that was the case, which I don't think it is, Microsoft shouldn't be asking for stuff like FAT32 royalties. Think about it. Microsoft is asking for royalties for making devices that work with Windows . How crazy is that? Imagine if Google charged accessory makers for hooking into Android devices. I don't care if others do this sort of thing, too. It's just wrong. It should be an anti-trust issue, especially w…

Why shouldn't MSFT claim patents for FAT? They've developed it and it was adopted by everyone and their mother for being good and cheap FS. You don't need to support FAT to allow transfer of files between your your Windows PC and the phone standards that abstract the file system like MTP and PTP exist for this very own reason. If you are as a phone maker want to enable users to mount their local phone storage as a fu…

The point is, that you cannot use other filesystem, perhaps more suitable to underlying storage technology, like F2FS, because it does not work with Windows.

FAT is actually terrible filesystem. It's only advantage is "works with Windows".

For SD-cards, it is actually mandatory to use FAT (exFAT for SDXC). It's part of the spec.

MTP/PTP is a non-functioning mess.

Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#47
post #25
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A touchscreen phone named Neonode N1 had slide-to-unlock 2 years before iPhone. http://9to5mac.com/2011/10/25/slide-to-unlock-patented/ But the point is, it is a very trivial way of interacting with a touchscreen. It is, in fact, one of the few ways one can interact with a touchscreen.

Yes, the Neonode has "slide to unlock", but Apple's patent is for a very specific set of claims; items which the Neonode didn't implement. With Apple's patent, they claim novelty over having a single graphical element that the user needs to move with predefined start and end points. Another claim expands upon that saying there is a graphical arrow showing direction of movement. Another claim says there is help text e…

> The Neonode is not prior art for those claims.

Well, CAFC thinks that Neonode makes the claims of the Slide to unlock patent obvious:

> We reverse the judgment of infringement and no invalidity because the asserted claim of the ’721 patent would have been obvious in light of Neonode and Plaisant.

From http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-or...

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Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#48
It's apparently OK to rip off the best ideas while learning from the mistakes of more then 15 years of work done pioneering by Palm, Microsoft and Apple and slapping them on top of a free OS and just paying nothing.

It's hard to see the difference between the first iPhones and Galaxy phones, in terms of home screen and hardware. You can't tell them apart at first glance. A clear rip-off. The patents Apple used to sue them were often trivial but the fact it was nothing but an iClone was obvious.

Apparently that's the only thing you can do to a competitor that copies without innovating. I can imagine that now Google had a few firsts in Android (interactive notifications for example) these patents will be swapped more and more and Microsoft gets less leverage. That's why Motorola didn't have to pay, they were extremely important advancing mobile technology and have their own chest of patents as a result.

Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#49
post #9
post #4

How did Motorola manage to push back while others caved?

Others pushed back too - and were bought off eg. Barnes & Noble and SuSE/Novell.

Sony is still showing middle finger to Microsoft and doesn't pay a dime.

Re: Microsoft won't stop forcing companies to pay for its bogus Android patents

#50

> So, why are people still paying up rather than fighting? Because patent litigation is incredibly expensive. It's cheaper to pay a $5 to $15 per device licensing fee than to pay a small fortune and take even a remote chance of failure in court. > Samsung alone paid Microsoft a billion bucks to license its Android patents. So like, why didn't Samsung take them to court?

One reason might be Samsung's Windows laptop business.
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