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The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

blogs.spectator.co.uk

41–50 of 62 posts

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who uses terms like "the left" is pretty much announcing where they are coming from, and that their argument is almost certainly going to be simplistic and flawed. Take this excerpt: Surely the left believes in secularism and despises the superstitions that have held humanity back? Not so, and not for a long time. If "the left" believes in secularism and atheism, and the people he's talking about oppose secula…

Alternately, the accepted shorthand for some groups may well be "the left" and "the right". Similarly, there are people who will use the term "Social Justice Warrior" while identifying with the movement, because it is a decent shorthand. "What do those groups represent then, "the right"?" It is possible to have other disagreements with those viewpoints despite what others might believe. For example, it is absolutely…

"The Jews" is an accepted shorthand for some people, and like "the left" you can be fairly certain the argument around the term is not going to focus on what a great bunch of lads they are.

As to the other point, if both groups are "the left" (even though in this case one group is not behaving that way) then why argue that "the left" is censoring/repressing, when it's at least equally true (I'd say more true) that "the left" is being censored/repressed?

I mean it's pretty funny seeing people on "the right" pretending to care that feminists and gay-rights activists are being shut down.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who uses terms like "the left" is pretty much announcing where they are coming from, and that their argument is almost certainly going to be simplistic and flawed. Take this excerpt: Surely the left believes in secularism and despises the superstitions that have held humanity back? Not so, and not for a long time. If "the left" believes in secularism and atheism, and the people he's talking about oppose secula…

Please don't be ridiculous. There are tons of videos you can find on YouTube of leftists shutting down conservative speech. Look at Milo and Ben Shapiro for instance. Can you provide some examples of the right doing the same on university campuses?

Can you post under a more obvious sock?

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#43
post #5

When moral relativism is your religion, anyone with moral conviction is your enemy and must be silenced. What's most pitiful is the cowardice displayed by all who should know better. University trustees and professors, business leaders, entertainers, and every last one of us who has ever surrendered to this tyranny in our schools, our jobs, or our communities. Instead of fighting back, we capitulate and cower in fear…

You left out an important dimension. The modern trend is to run everything "more like a business." The heads of universities come decreasingly from academia, and re instead MBA and politically connected people. This is justified by the need to bring in more money, because the states no longer want to fully fund the university. My belief is that businesses don't like controversy unless it brings profit. Free speech at…

They don't run ît like a business, more like a political campaign + foundation + corrupt gov't. Donors, dealmaking, mandates, taxes.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#44
post #5

When moral relativism is your religion, anyone with moral conviction is your enemy and must be silenced. What's most pitiful is the cowardice displayed by all who should know better. University trustees and professors, business leaders, entertainers, and every last one of us who has ever surrendered to this tyranny in our schools, our jobs, or our communities. Instead of fighting back, we capitulate and cower in fear…

You left out an important dimension. The modern trend is to run everything "more like a business." The heads of universities come decreasingly from academia, and re instead MBA and politically connected people. This is justified by the need to bring in more money, because the states no longer want to fully fund the university. My belief is that businesses don't like controversy unless it brings profit. Free speech at…

> See, that's the sort of sexist language that encourages knee-jerk reactions, and gets people like me labeled "PC". My wife deployed twice to Iraq. Don't you dare leave out all those women who have died....

You actually went there. In this thread. Unreal.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternately, the accepted shorthand for some groups may well be "the left" and "the right". Similarly, there are people who will use the term "Social Justice Warrior" while identifying with the movement, because it is a decent shorthand. "What do those groups represent then, "the right"?" It is possible to have other disagreements with those viewpoints despite what others might believe. For example, it is absolutely…

"The Jews" is an accepted shorthand for some people, and like "the left" you can be fairly certain the argument around the term is not going to focus on what a great bunch of lads they are. As to the other point, if both groups are "the left" (even though in this case one group is not behaving that way) then why argue that "the left" is censoring/repressing, when it's at least equally true (I'd say more true) that "t…

"The Jews" is an accepted shorthand for some people,

Many of those people themselves being Jewish, referring to their own communities and people! I see what you're driving at, but the simple fact of the matter is that "leftist" is no more an automatic insult that "rightist" unless one is misidentified.

I mean it's pretty funny seeing people on "the right" pretending to care that feminists and gay-rights activists are being shut down.

I think it's reasonable that even the most die-hard reactionary may see the existential threat posed by policies and behaviors used to silence folks they might otherwise like. After all, mob justice is never guaranteed to stay in one's favor.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idioms are a bitch. I'm no native speaker, but I see no good alternative to "good men". "Good People", maybe? But I bet native ears would cringe a bit.

"Good people" would have worked fine, though at some cost to dramatic impact. The really barbarous constructions are things like "he or she" as the third-person singular pronoun. There's five camps I can think of on this: 1) Keep using "he" as the gender-generic third-person singular pronoun. This was the only accepted option for a long time. I think this is the best sounding, but some crowds might give you grief for…

For points 1) and 4), just so you are aware, "they" as a singular pronoun has been in popular use since the 14th century. The idea that the "correct" gender neutral singular pronoun is "he" came about in the 19th century. I find it much harder to support the idea that "'they' is supposed to be plural" with this in mind.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#48
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You left out an important dimension. The modern trend is to run everything "more like a business." The heads of universities come decreasingly from academia, and re instead MBA and politically connected people. This is justified by the need to bring in more money, because the states no longer want to fully fund the university. My belief is that businesses don't like controversy unless it brings profit. Free speech at…

I'm inclined to agree that "running things like a business" is part of the reason why no one wants to make a stand. But I have to disagree with this: > Or to repurpose your phrase, "When business and profits are your religion, anyone with moral conviction is your enemy and must be silenced." It's not the businessmen who are trying to shut down free speech and debate on college campuses. > See, that's the sort of sexi…

The phrases "good people", "good souls", "good citizens", "good soldiers" and "good Americans" all would have been better than "good men", depending on your focus. I think "good souls" would have been the most poetic of these phrases for your intent.

If you mean to include the members of the Merchant Marine or the CIA who have died to support US military policies, then "soldiers" doesn't work.

If you mean to include the members of the Peace Corp who have died to support US non-military policies, then "soldiers" also doesn't work.

If you mean to include the American solders who are not US citizens, then neither "citizen" nor "American" would work.

If you mean to include the many female soldiers who have died in American conflicts, then "good men" doesn't work. While "man" can include all people (reflecting its Germanic roots), a phrase like "The show is especially popular with middle-aged men" is almost universally understood to be different than "The show is especially popular with middle-aged people", nor does the door marked "Men" indicate the gender neutral bathroom. We are also not long from the time when women were excluded from organizations on the justification the bylaws specify men, or from the time when "research men" and "typist girls" worked together as "he" and "she" respectively.

As to your Armstrong quote, your term "fix" confuses me. The past simply is. We can change our understanding of the past, and understand it's context in different ways. We can change how we do things in the future. But we cannot "fix" the past.

Still, I will consider an alternative history where the first moon landing were to occur this summer, with a male pilot named Armstrong2. You already saw that I am not against using the gendered term "wife" (derived, by the way, from 'wif', meaning a female man. When "man" was a gender neutral term, she would have been a wifman and I a werman, meaning a male man). I see no reason for Armstrong2 say 'small step for a man or a womyn' when "man" is a better fit and non-exclusionary. (If Armstrong2 were a woman, would you not think 'that's one small step for a woman, one giant leap for mankind' to be somewhat odd?)

You brought up 'womyn'. I believe you did it as a debate technique to polarize to topic and make a false association by assuming that a small group of feminists is representative of the whole of "SJW". Still, I will consider that possibility.

If Armstrong2 were to say "one giant leap for man- and womyn-kind" then that would be an expression of Armstrong2's views of gender identity. Is that what you think Armstrong2 believes? If so, then what's wrong with that statement?

I can answer that. The Armstrong in our timeline wanted an inclusive term. 1969 was the time of upheaval in race relations, gender relations, and international relations. He wanted a term that could encompass everyone, and do so in a poetic, memorable statement. If Armstrong2 were to say 'man- and womyn-kind' in the alternative timeline similar to our modern one, it would be a divisive phrase. If "man-kind" really meant everyone then there's no need to say "womyn-kind". If "man-kind" is limited to just males, then those woman who do not accept the aspirational goals behind "womyn" would feel excluded. This would be most of the women on the planet. Therefore, "man- and womyn-kind" would not be an encompassing phrase.

Hence why I think your objection has no merit, and your proposed phrase fails to capture the intent behind Armstrong's quote. I can of course think of many alternatives, but don't see the point. Nothing I write can shine against the excitement and glory that imbues that first trip to the moon. I can, however, say that "That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for humanity" is a better alternative than what you proposed.

Tell me, do you still use the terms "aviatrix" and "authoress", "poetess" and "doctress", or have you embraced that butchering of the English language? Or do you somehow believe the terms you grew up with are the correct ones, and not the result of the generations of butchering the language that came before you?

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "One small step for a man or a womyn, one giant leap for man- and womyn-kind". I think I could get that one through even toughest SJW language police. What do you think? I think "the SJW language police" probably know that Neil Armstrong is not a "womyn".

Who's to say what Neil Armstrong identifies as? Also this is excluding people who identify as non-man, non-womyn genders. It is also ableist against those who have limited mobility by comparing achievements to walking and jumping. There's no pleasing people who are a prior offended.

Neil Armstrong. That's who gets to say what Neil Armstrong identifies as.

Neil Armstrong publicly identified as a man. "That's one small step for a man" is an expression of that identity, as is "Here men from the planet Earth first set foot upon the Moon. July 1969 AD. We came in peace for all mankind." Everything we know about him, from his own statements about being a "schoolboy" in Ohio on up, is consistent with an expression of that identity.

He also publicly identified as an engineer: “I am, and ever will be, a white-socks, pocket-protector, nerdy engineer, born under the second law of thermodynamics, steeped in steam tables, in love with free-body diagrams, transformed by Laplace and propelled by compressible flow.” - http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/08/obituary

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#50
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You left out an important dimension. The modern trend is to run everything "more like a business." The heads of universities come decreasingly from academia, and re instead MBA and politically connected people. This is justified by the need to bring in more money, because the states no longer want to fully fund the university. My belief is that businesses don't like controversy unless it brings profit. Free speech at…

> See, that's the sort of sexist language that encourages knee-jerk reactions, and gets people like me labeled "PC". My wife deployed twice to Iraq. Don't you dare leave out all those women who have died.... You actually went there. In this thread. Unreal.

I am not calling for a safe haven, or restriction on speech, which is what the main topic concern.

Instead, I am using my speech to criticize someone else's speech, which is what "free speech" is supposed to encourage.

Why shouldn't I go there in this thread?

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