The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing • Hacker News Board

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#31

Post by mc32 » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 1:48 AM UTC

hartpuff wrote: post #24

mc32 wrote: post #2

It is indeed a sad day when people, that is, students, are censored by their own. It's astounding that this would happen being that through disagreement and argument is how we find our better ways. My sentiment is that here is the one place where we should feel free to share our ideas no matter how immature or adolescent they are. This should be the place where we get to open up and explore. But, as they say, the lef…

Anyone who uses terms like "the left" is pretty much announcing where they are coming from, and that their argument is almost certainly going to be simplistic and flawed. Take this excerpt: Surely the left believes in secularism and despises the superstitions that have held humanity back? Not so, and not for a long time. If "the left" believes in secularism and atheism, and the people he's talking about oppose secula…

For the most part, I take it to mean the academic intellectual left. Yet, I think this dive into who Cohen is referring to is a detour which misses the point. The regrettable issue is various groups (left, right, whatever) within academia being able to establish taboos and enforce topics non-grata, to the detriment of thought exploration and discussion by the student body as well as the faculty.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#32

Post by krapp » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 1:53 AM UTC

trav4225 wrote: post #30

wildmusings wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You caught me. I was indulging in a little hyperbole.

I'm not sure Armstrong has spoken publicly about its gender identity. Can we be so sure? ;-)

Well, the actual quote during the moon landing, Armstrong insists[0], was "One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind." So I think we can be reasonably sure. ;)

[0]http://www.space.com/17307-neil-armstrong-one-small-step-quo...

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#33

Post by hjhgjtyhgdf » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 1:58 AM UTC

hartpuff wrote: post #24

mc32 wrote: post #2

It is indeed a sad day when people, that is, students, are censored by their own. It's astounding that this would happen being that through disagreement and argument is how we find our better ways. My sentiment is that here is the one place where we should feel free to share our ideas no matter how immature or adolescent they are. This should be the place where we get to open up and explore. But, as they say, the lef…

Anyone who uses terms like "the left" is pretty much announcing where they are coming from, and that their argument is almost certainly going to be simplistic and flawed. Take this excerpt: Surely the left believes in secularism and despises the superstitions that have held humanity back? Not so, and not for a long time. If "the left" believes in secularism and atheism, and the people he's talking about oppose secula…

Please don't be ridiculous. There are tons of videos you can find on YouTube of leftists shutting down conservative speech. Look at Milo and Ben Shapiro for instance. Can you provide some examples of the right doing the same on university campuses?

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#34

Post by indrax » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 2:36 AM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #27

over wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's just that there's a lot of dramatic and hyperbolic words and phrases in there, here's a list from a quick pass: > religion, anyone, conviction, enemy, must, silenced > most, pitiful, cowardice, all, should, every last one of us, ever, surrendered, tyranny, fighting, capitulate, cower, fear > my own country, America; disgusts, good men, put down their lives, secure, blessings, liberty, lack, confidence, c…

Dramatic is the right tone here. We are seeing the collapse of intellectual freedom and openness in the places where it was supposed to be valued most. This does not bode well for our civilization. My generation, the millennials, holds free speech in much lower regard than previous generations. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/40-of-millen... . Everyone who values freedom should be very alarmed.

Millenials didn't invent video game ratings, movie ratings, the seven 'dirty' words, the hays code, or blacklists.

If your generation targets something that's actually harmful, you're ahead of the game.

Consider a space that becasue all speech is allowed, is dominated by speech that marginalizes some subset of the population. Is that 'free'?

I think that if you want a place of intellectual exploration, excluding people is as dangerous as excluding certain ideas. And there seems to be a trade-off.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#35

Post by wildmusings » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 2:42 AM UTC

indrax wrote: post #34

wildmusings wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dramatic is the right tone here. We are seeing the collapse of intellectual freedom and openness in the places where it was supposed to be valued most. This does not bode well for our civilization. My generation, the millennials, holds free speech in much lower regard than previous generations. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/40-of-millen... . Everyone who values freedom should be very alarmed.

Millenials didn't invent video game ratings, movie ratings, the seven 'dirty' words, the hays code, or blacklists. If your generation targets something that's actually harmful, you're ahead of the game. Consider a space that becasue all speech is allowed, is dominated by speech that marginalizes some subset of the population. Is that 'free'? I think that if you want a place of intellectual exploration, excluding peop…

I very recently graduated from a college where these activists were very active. I can assure you, that there is not some epidemic of racism or any other kind of discrimination that this is a legitimate reaction to. It's nothing short of a political power-grab and an attempt to shut down any discussion by people that they don't agree with. They have successfully created a climate of fear. The reaction among all of the different institutions--different academic and administrative departments, student groups, greek organizations, alumni groups, etc.--is nothing short of race to capitulate the fastest.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#36

Post by chongli » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 2:53 AM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #25

tomlock wrote: post #20

The author seems to reminisce about a time when universities were pure outlets of free thought. At that time women were vastly outnumbered by men in universities. The time when universities were pure and free for everyone exists only in the authors imagination.

You didn't back up anything you were saying. It looks to me like women crossed the majority in 1960. http://blogs.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/gender-...

Read the graph more carefully. That is birth year, not graduation year.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#37

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 2:57 AM UTC

CyberDildonics wrote: post #25

tomlock wrote: post #20

The author seems to reminisce about a time when universities were pure outlets of free thought. At that time women were vastly outnumbered by men in universities. The time when universities were pure and free for everyone exists only in the authors imagination.

You didn't back up anything you were saying. It looks to me like women crossed the majority in 1960. http://blogs.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/gender-...

[deleted]

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#38

Post by angersock » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 4:44 AM UTC

hartpuff wrote: post #24

mc32 wrote: post #2

It is indeed a sad day when people, that is, students, are censored by their own. It's astounding that this would happen being that through disagreement and argument is how we find our better ways. My sentiment is that here is the one place where we should feel free to share our ideas no matter how immature or adolescent they are. This should be the place where we get to open up and explore. But, as they say, the lef…

Anyone who uses terms like "the left" is pretty much announcing where they are coming from, and that their argument is almost certainly going to be simplistic and flawed. Take this excerpt: Surely the left believes in secularism and despises the superstitions that have held humanity back? Not so, and not for a long time. If "the left" believes in secularism and atheism, and the people he's talking about oppose secula…

Alternately, the accepted shorthand for some groups may well be "the left" and "the right". Similarly, there are people who will use the term "Social Justice Warrior" while identifying with the movement, because it is a decent shorthand.

"What do those groups represent then, "the right"?"

It is possible to have other disagreements with those viewpoints despite what others might believe. For example, it is absolutely ideologically consistent that while the left may support atheism in the abstract they would also fail to support its logical conclusion that Islam as a religion and its practitioners should be re-educated.

Similarly, the right may support gun owners but still disagree that felons/minorities should be allowed to own firearms.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#39

Post by thescribe » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 5:46 AM UTC

hartpuff wrote: post #18

wildmusings wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to agree that "running things like a business" is part of the reason why no one wants to make a stand. But I have to disagree with this: > Or to repurpose your phrase, "When business and profits are your religion, anyone with moral conviction is your enemy and must be silenced." It's not the businessmen who are trying to shut down free speech and debate on college campuses. > See, that's the sort of sexi…

> "One small step for a man or a womyn, one giant leap for man- and womyn-kind". I think I could get that one through even toughest SJW language police. What do you think? I think "the SJW language police" probably know that Neil Armstrong is not a "womyn".

Who's to say what Neil Armstrong identifies as? Also this is excluding people who identify as non-man, non-womyn genders. It is also ableist against those who have limited mobility by comparing achievements to walking and jumping.

There's no pleasing people who are a prior offended.

Re: The idea of a university as a free space rather than a safe space is vanishing

#40

Post by thescribe » Sun, Mar 20, 2016, 5:46 AM UTC

hartpuff wrote: post #18

wildmusings wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to agree that "running things like a business" is part of the reason why no one wants to make a stand. But I have to disagree with this: > Or to repurpose your phrase, "When business and profits are your religion, anyone with moral conviction is your enemy and must be silenced." It's not the businessmen who are trying to shut down free speech and debate on college campuses. > See, that's the sort of sexi…

> "One small step for a man or a womyn, one giant leap for man- and womyn-kind". I think I could get that one through even toughest SJW language police. What do you think? I think "the SJW language police" probably know that Neil Armstrong is not a "womyn".

Who's to say what Neil Armstrong identifies as? Also this is excluding people who identify as non-man, non-womyn genders. It is also ableist against those who have limited mobility by comparing achievements to walking and jumping.

There's no pleasing people who are a prior offended.