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ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

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Re: ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

#61
post #24

Some bad signs: 1. Hosted in Switzerland is advertised as a security feature. The point of e2e is that the servers are untrusted. If you need a "good jurisdiction" for your servers, it means they must be trusted. That's a problem, because sadly there are no good jurisdictions in today's world, and your jurisdiction doesn't help you if your servers are hacked. 2. It's webmail. That means the security of whatever e2e t…

Disclosure Note: I'm with ProtonMail. Please note that I don't officially speak for the company. But, I'm a crypto guy and this is Hackernews so...

1. While historically advertising a hosting location was a bit of a red flag for snake oil, the Snowden disclosures changed things for SaaS providers. Jurisdictional arbitrage is indeed a security feature of the service. I think you're missing the point a bit in that it goes much beyond the physical servers. Simply locating servers in Switzerland doesn't provide much protection for users if you're an American company with US bank accounts. For example, choosing to run on German or Irish AWS servers doesn't really buy you much. But, ProtonMail not only has all of its servers located in Swiss datacenters, it also: 1) Is a Swiss corporation fully under the jurisdiction of Swiss law (which also means it operates under strict customer data anti-retention requirements) 2) Holds its funds in a Swiss bank 3) Has corporate officers that reside in Switzerland 4) Offers .ch e-mail addresses and a .ch web interface that cannot be taken control of through US courts and that are resolved through Swiss DNS servers 5) Is using a non-US (Swiss) Certificate Authority (QuoVadis) for its certificates.

2. This is true. However, it's true about every web service. It is also true about any software that is either distributed over the web/TLS or has security updates distributed over the web/TLS. It also includes any software that runs on platforms that have patches distributed over TLS. That is nearly everything. It's no more difficult to insert malicious code into web apps than it is to insert it into mobile phone apps, desktop apps, or operating system patches when working with a compromised trusted TLS connection. While some may say that non-web apps have code signing or application signing keys, the fact is that most of either the signing or verification keys for those application code signature schemes are distributed over TLS. There are devices out there with trusted hardware and embedded keys and some groups are starting to make use of proper TPMs. But, high quality trusted platforms are beyond the reach of most consumers and developers. I know of no platform that would catch the insertion of malicious code by a determined third party with the ability compromise a TLS session in the release and/or development cycle. If webapps are faulted and everyone is using a webapp (github) to develop, well then, everyone is essentially equally compromised. The same goes for distributing updates or public keys for validation of code signatures.

3. The company did, in the early days, see Lavabit as a inspiration. But, our systems are very different. Our systems are "can't read your mail" not "promise not to read your mail". Proton has no need to avert its eyes. There is no "plaintext in and plaintext out". There is no transmission of the private key decryption passwords back to the server. I don't think your comparison holds. The way Proton works is that the encryption is done in the browser. A non-encrypted private key is not stored, or ever sent to, the Proton servers. An openPGP keypair is generated in the browser by the user. The public key is sent to servers and stored in a database. The private key is encrypted in the client's browser, with a passphrase the client enters, using the opensource openpgpjs library. That encrypted (with a password that is never sent back to the Proton servers) private key is sent to the Proton servers and stored in a database. When a user logs in, their encrypted openPGP key is sent down to their browser with their public key encrypted e-mail. Their web browser then decrypts their private key and uses it to decrypt their email on the local computer. We never have to avert our eyes from their passphrase because it never transverses our systems. The decryption is done locally. Obviously, it would be better for us not to store the private key (even though it's strongly encrypted). But, that's just not practical for a webmail application.

So, I'm sure everyone is wondering: What would a TLS based ProtonMail compromise look like? Well, modified code (nefarious javascript) would be injected into the TLS stream that would send the user's decrypted private key and/or private key pass phrase to a third party or otherwise expose it (as invalid packets, etc) in the stream. Or, carefully selected cryptographic primitives would be inserted into the software. I contend that these are the same vulnerabilities someone faces downloading GnuPG from it's distribution sites, downloading Firefox/Chrome/IE, or even applying Windows/Linux updates.

And, I'm also sure people are wondering: What would a US Government compromise of the ProtonMail servers look like? Well, I'll leave the details out on how the US Government might get their hands on Swiss domiciled servers... maybe something like the time they cut through a datacenter wall at MIT in the middle of the night to get the early PGP code. Let's just assume they have the servers. They'd first have to break the disk encryption. Once they broke the disk encryption, they'd have to break into the database. Once they did that, they'd basically have a bunch of AES encrypted keys that they'd have to run password guessing attacks on.

ProtonMail is trying to bring cryptography to the general population to protect the basic human right of privacy. We are doing webmail the best possible way webmail can be done because webmail is the primary method of communicating for the vast majority of people today. We are not going to get our grandmas to sit in Faraday cages and work on trusted platforms with one time pads that they exchanged at their church groups and yoga classes.

There is no security through obscurity in what we're doing. Honestly, I'd be honored if you took a look. We use Signal internally. I've read through the code and was very impressed. I couldn't find a single flaw that I could exploit. Perhaps, you'd even be willing to do a consulting engagement to audit us?

Re: ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

#62
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "it does seem that (much like Lavabit), the service is built on the premise of "won't" read your mail rather than "can't" read your mail." Can you help me understand this comment? I get that the usual problem with webmail is that it's "plaintext in, plaintext out"... So you just have to trust the server operator that they're actually encrypting anything, doing it well, not compromised, etc. But if that's the proble…

If you have an installable client that performs the encryption, yes. But if the encryption is driven by Javascript that is or can be loaded when you hit the website, then no: the application is only as secure as the HTTP connection you rely on to deliver the code to you every time you hit the site.

that's totally fair, but you are dependent on transport layer security implementation no matter what.

Re: ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

#64
post #46
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HushMail... wow, that's some history right there. Anyways, they got in bed with feds, and that was pretty much the end of that.. http://www.wired.com/2007/11/encrypted-e-mai

"Even we cannot read your e-mails!" Exactly what those guys said 10 years ago, and exactly what Proton is saying now. What is different?

The difference is that they are lying. Hushmail encryption is not end-to-end. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hushmail

Re: ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

#65
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have an installable client that performs the encryption, yes. But if the encryption is driven by Javascript that is or can be loaded when you hit the website, then no: the application is only as secure as the HTTP connection you rely on to deliver the code to you every time you hit the site.

that's totally fair, but you are dependent on transport layer security implementation no matter what.

There are secure channels for delivering installable client software that allows protection of content even without transport layer security, and you only need to do it correctly during installation and intermittent updates, not at every access.

Re: ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

#66
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's totally fair, but you are dependent on transport layer security implementation no matter what.

There are secure channels for delivering installable client software that allows protection of content even without transport layer security, and you only need to do it correctly during installation and intermittent updates, not at every access.

what are the secure channels that don't require an uncompromised server and uncompromised client? I can't think of any.

It's a good point that you only have to trust both environments at install and update... but you can do the same thing for javascript in a browser: set a long cache time, and browsers will use their local copy until the remote is updated. Use a module loader pattern, and you can compare md5 hashes of the local and remote libraries before sensitive data is handled.

I'm not saying it would foil a dedicated attacker - nothing would, anyway - but it would be good enough for protonmail's use case: protecting normal people against mass surveillance.

Re: ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

#67
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Phil Zimmermann, PGP's creator, says it's too hard to use: “I hardly ever run PGP. When people send me PGP encrypted mail I have to go through a lot of trouble to decrypt it. If it’s coming from a stranger, I’ll say please re-send this in plain text, which probably raises their eyebrows.“ http://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2013/08/09/e-mails-bi... I tried the ProtonMail password protection feature today (whi…

"PGP is hard to use" is more memetic than accurate. What makes PGP hard is that it has a million options, and its vocal users (and detractors) seem insistent on availing themselves of as many of them as possible. In reality, 80% of PGP's value (which is more value than you'll get out of any webmail system), you can get with three command lines: gpg -sear recipient@addr document.txt Encrypt and sign a document, ASCII…

> 80% of PGP's value ... you can get with three command lines:

While I completely agree that those commands are all that is needed most of the time, it's this part that unfortunately makes pgp/gpg so unpopular:

> command lines

Even on HN I find people that hate the command line (even though they use it). The problem is the complete lack of front ends wrappers around those commands in every other email tool.

The enigmail plugin for thunderbird is surprisingly nice. It even does a decent job at key management (including the web of trust), but it made the "80% of PGP's value" completely transparent. If you have the key for an address, emails are automagically piped through gpg, and it handles decryption for you similarly (with pgp-agent support for less passphrase typing). Of course, that was only useful for the handful of us that used thunderbird; with Mozilla dropping the project, it's questionable if this has a useful future.

Almost all of the complexity with pgp/gpg can be hidden behind a nice GUI and opportunistic[1] enabling of the crypto. Unfortunately development has been focused on walled gardens and tying people to artificial dependencies[2] instead of writing useful client-installed software.

[1] Fallback to plaintext that people use currently is necessary until a critical mass of keys have been shared.

[2] why write a client app when you can make it hard for people to switch to other services by tying them to your domain name? /sigh/

Re: ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

#68
post #9
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's webmail. Everything is stored on their servers.

It can't be searched on the server. The article says "The app is encrypted end-to-end and, like Apple's iPhone, can't even be accessed by the company itself."

Everything available OB the app is available in the webinterface (I am a protonmail user)

Re: ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

#69
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The USG phone Visa and MasterCard CEOs Don't forget Amazon. Never forget Amazon: http://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/dec/01/wikileaks-websi...

Amazon's pretty corrupt. Apart from Wikileaks they've also decided to abuse their position and not compete by refusing to sell Apple TV or Chromecasts. Just get a 404. Their service reps deny everything and say it's just a temporary stock issue or that they "lack the contracts to sell such products". Scummy, and I'm very reluctantly cancelling prime over it, and I'm a customer of 13 years.

Can you explain the background to this story? This is because they only want to sell their solution?

Re: ProtonMail's encrypted email is now available to all

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should consider all of them insecure and big time snoops if free and/or webmail. If webmail, best you can do is use a paid service with antisnooping in terms of service and preferrably local laws. Just reduces number that will attack you. Anything further requires using something like PGP/GPG over that so they can't read it. Strong endpoint security, too.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Non-webmail may not be accessible from everywhere, paid-email entails money exchange which maybe traceable. Lavabit seems to have been secure enough for Snowden (for a while). So the question remains: Yes Free and/or Webmail are bad - which one is the LEAST bad from a privacy & security perspective?

There's a good list here that should allow you to decide for yourself:

http://prxbx.com/email/

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