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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#81

Post by ridgeguy »

hkmurakami wrote: post #15
plorkyeran wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the FBI then going to make a grab for source code, signing keys, and conscript people to do the work? I think it's become clear that they'd at least try .

Interesting. A draft targeting software engineers to forcibly enlist them in the government's "war on encryption". What kind of dystopia are we living in again?

I don't think this could happen without enabling legislation.

The U.S. military draft required passage of the Selective Service Act [1] Something similar would be required before Apple's coders could be forced to carry out court orders directed at Apple, the corporation. Even in these times (so far!) I think this wouldn't happen.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_Act_of_1917

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#82

Post by rcthompson »

joesmo wrote: post #61
harryh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but in this case Apple isn't being accused of anything so the 5th amendment doesn't apply.

"nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself" ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fifth_amendment ) This is a criminal case, however. It would apply to real people, but likely does not apply to corporations regardless of rulings treating corporations as people for other purpose. I imagine the Apple lawyers would have had it as part of their defense strategy if it did.

No one is asking Apple to testify against itself.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#83

Post by lugg »

studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

Yea, we can all blame someone else. I like this, "not my job to uphold the constitution", "its the courts fault for letting it get here", "its the politicians fault for going a long with this", "its the peoples fault for voting for them".

The fact is, if nobody stands up for this, do you really think anyone is going to stand up and try to take away the back door to the iphone and get away with it?

Do you really believe they will stop there?

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#84

Post by [deleted] »

cortesoft wrote: post #37
kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

Or, lets say they complete the task... and it doesn't work. Then what?

[deleted]

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#85

Post by studentrob »

orik wrote: post #3
moioci wrote: post #2

Interesting parallel with Lavabit pointed out at the end of the article. Would the DOJ be willing to risk shutting down the biggest and most profitable corporation on earth over this?

I believe when the government twisted Yahoo's hand and they put up a fight, Yahoo was given a fine that increased exponentially every day they didn't comply. Yahoo would have owed the US gov. a sum equivalent to the GDP by the end of a month.

Yes, $250,000 per day [1]. And that was in 2008 in FISA court. We only just learned about it in 2014.

Who knows if the FBI's request carries as much as the NSA's. Probably not. Former NSA Director Michael Hayden confirms it was easier for him to get things done than the FBI [2]

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-lawsu...

[2] https://youtu.be/_ESGBPmf0mc?t=45m9s

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#86

Post by harryh »

na85 wrote: post #64
harryh wrote: post #56

Son, go to your room! But I don't want to go to my room! Son, go to your room! Mommy, what would happen if on the way to my room I ran into a pack of wild dogs in the hallway blocking my path? Would I still have to go to my room?

I bet you're fun at parties.

That depends. Is your mom gonna be at this party?

She's fun at parties.

waggles eyebrows

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#87

Post by studentrob »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #22
orik wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe when the government twisted Yahoo's hand and they put up a fight, Yahoo was given a fine that increased exponentially every day they didn't comply. Yahoo would have owed the US gov. a sum equivalent to the GDP by the end of a month.

Could you provide a reference to this? I don't recall what you're referring to.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/11/yahoo-nsa-lawsu...

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#88

Post by Retra »

na85 wrote: post #64
harryh wrote: post #56

Son, go to your room! But I don't want to go to my room! Son, go to your room! Mommy, what would happen if on the way to my room I ran into a pack of wild dogs in the hallway blocking my path? Would I still have to go to my room?

I bet you're fun at parties.

Is that something you think every person must aspire to be?

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#89

Post by ridgeguy »

smitherfield wrote: post #31
kabdib wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HR to security engineer: "You're quitting? That's a shame. Um . . . Tim Cook has a beach house he wouldn't mind you using for a while. Can you walk his dog?" My point is, the individuals won't suffer.

When you get a lawful court order, you comply with it. To do otherwise would result in massive fines and quite possibly executives being criminally charged. If the Apple security engineers want to quit on principle, then it truly would be on principle; there is absolutely no way Apple's legal department would allow them to ever be rehired or offered any compensation/gifts beyond a standard severance package. If engin…

I'm not sure Apple could be fined if its relevant employees took individual decisions that resulted in Apple's inability to comply with the court's order.

Apple doesn't have the ability to compel an individual's conduct. The court's order applies to Apple, not to named individuals. Given that, I don't see a legal basis for fines, executive criminal charges, etc.

I think there's a lot of power in the hands of a few employees (and potential replacements) here. It'll be interesting to see what they decide to do.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#90

Post by spectrum1234 »

Apple's poor org structure is a blessing in this case:

Apple said in court filings last month that it would take from six to 10 engineers up to a month to meet the government’s demands. However, because Apple is so compartmentalized, the challenge of building what the company described as “GovtOS” would be substantially complicated if key employees refused to do the work.

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