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Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

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Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#81

Post by gohrt »

tveita wrote: post #78
chrisherring wrote: post #7

I've started playing Go against a computer (SmartGo iOS on a 9x9 board) but I find the hard part is determining where you're making mistakes, what is a better move, why the computer did what it did etc. For instance the computer may ignore a capture to play elsewhere and it can be hard to work out why. I learnt to play Chess when I was young so I can't make a fair comparison but it feels like Chess is much easier to…

I've had a similar problem. I would like to develop an intuition for the game by exploring different variations, "if I do this, the opponent does this, but if I do this, the opponent does this instead", but last I looked I couldn't find a client with a good interface for exploring the game tree that way with a computer opponent. I know playing against humans is better, but a computer opponent has the patience to watc…

My trouble with tsumego:

I can sit down and maybe solve a tsumego problem, OK. Sometimes I guess a bit (MCTS!) instead of working out the whole tree, developing that intuition.

But tsumego are labelled with difficulty and that they are winnable.

But when I play a game, how do I know how if a certain local position is winnable, and worth spending the minute(s) to find how to win it?

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#82

Post by gohrt »

shultays wrote: post #51
kqr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general principle is that captures aren't actually worth a whole lot. Territory (area under your control) is where it's at. If a capture is a means of getting more territory, that's grand, but on it's own it's not worth much at all. Does this help your self diagnosis? If the computer ignored a capture it's because it didn't actually lead to a lot of territory gained, whereas whatever move it played probably did.

While scoring go uses area you control + number of stones you capture right? Somewhere I read about go it makes no sense to put stones on the area your opponent control because they will be captured. however wwwww w w w b w w w wwwww in this case white has to put 4 stones (thus reduce area by 4) just to get 1 point. am I missing something

A computer will correctly score that b as a dead stone, since it can't possibly make life, and white can kill it. That insurmountable threat makes the territory white's.

If a human tries to argue that b is alive, then either (a) that human is a novice, you can teach them, or (b) that human is a poor sport, and you shouldn't play with them.

Japanese counting is like Chinese counting, but assumes your opponent is not a jerk without explicitly handling cases when that's not true.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#83

Post by NhanH »

gohrt wrote: post #80
jonbarker wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 12k bots on pandanet are good for learning how to make large groups live against a relatively good opponent, large group deaths are usually the most damaging thing to a beginner's results.

Large group death meaning that the opponent invades before you have created eyes among your large-looking territory?

In your large-looking territory, the territory would be the eyes.

Large group death just basically mean a large group of stones, it could either be an invasion group, an attack and run group that grows, or even the used-to-be-territory-but-now-not group

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#84

Post by NhanH »

gohrt wrote: post #81
tveita wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a similar problem. I would like to develop an intuition for the game by exploring different variations, "if I do this, the opponent does this, but if I do this, the opponent does this instead", but last I looked I couldn't find a client with a good interface for exploring the game tree that way with a computer opponent. I know playing against humans is better, but a computer opponent has the patience to watc…

My trouble with tsumego: I can sit down and maybe solve a tsumego problem, OK. Sometimes I guess a bit (MCTS!) instead of working out the whole tree, developing that intuition. But tsumego are labelled with difficulty and that they are winnable. But when I play a game, how do I know how if a certain local position is winnable, and worth spending the minute(s) to find how to win it?

There are two big purposes for Tsumego, one is to train your reading ability, the other is to train your intuition and knowledge.

For the former, you need to read out ALL variations, and not just one branch. For the latter, and your question, it's just simply a matter of solving lots and lots of tsumegos. In real game, people missed life and deaths situation all the time :-).

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#85

Post by dfan »

mrob wrote: post #58
shultays wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While scoring go uses area you control + number of stones you capture right? Somewhere I read about go it makes no sense to put stones on the area your opponent control because they will be captured. however wwwww w w w b w w w wwwww in this case white has to put 4 stones (thus reduce area by 4) just to get 1 point. am I missing something

This is why I much prefer Chinese (and similar) rules with area scoring. In area scoring you get one point for each space you surround, and one point for each stone on the board. It's immediately obvious and simple. In Japanese rules you lose points for playing in your own territory. The black stone in your example is dead, and a reasonable player would allow it to be removed, but there's nothing stopping them from c…

Yes, I always teach novices with area scoring, because all of the "if I played it out, I'd kill you, but I don't have to actually play it out" stuff is incredibly confusing to someone learning the rules for the first time. It's much nicer to have no penalty (other than opportunity cost) for playing these sequences out.

The AGA system of pass stones, bringing area and territory scoring into alignment, is very nice, but I think it's still a bit abstract for someone who's just starting out.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#86

Post by dfan »

gohrt wrote: post #81
tveita wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a similar problem. I would like to develop an intuition for the game by exploring different variations, "if I do this, the opponent does this, but if I do this, the opponent does this instead", but last I looked I couldn't find a client with a good interface for exploring the game tree that way with a computer opponent. I know playing against humans is better, but a computer opponent has the patience to watc…

My trouble with tsumego: I can sit down and maybe solve a tsumego problem, OK. Sometimes I guess a bit (MCTS!) instead of working out the whole tree, developing that intuition. But tsumego are labelled with difficulty and that they are winnable. But when I play a game, how do I know how if a certain local position is winnable, and worth spending the minute(s) to find how to win it?

You might do better with problems that ask you to determine the status (alive/dead/seki/killable/ko/etc) of a group of stones.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#87

Post by _qbjt »

swannodette wrote: post #36

For the English speaking Go community, GoGameGuru is without question the most reliable online resource for great commentary on the most important matches between the world's top players (and of course more recently AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol). They also do translations of the best content from Korea's BadukTV - lessons, game commentary, famous problem sets, and more. GoGameGuru is a treasure trove, no question. That said…

TIL David Nolen is a Go player. Thanks for the resources (new player myself) as well as your ClojureScript related work.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#88

Post by knodi123 »

Jach wrote: post #52
knodi123 wrote: post #39

I, and I suspect a lot of other people, was introduced to Go by the tv show Hikaru No Go. > While exploring his grandfather's shed, Hikaru stumbles across a Go board haunted by the spirit of Fujiwara-no-Sai, a Go player from the Heian era. Sai wishes to play Go again, having not been able to since the late Edo period, when his ghost appeared to Honinbo Shusaku, a top Go player of that period. Sai's greatest desire is…

What would you ever fast forward besides the intro/"last time on.." and the outro? ;) I would add a recommendation to watch the Japanese dub. I accidentally stumbled upon the English dub on Youtube recently, I didn't even know there was one, it was terrible...

> What would you ever fast forward besides the intro/"last time on.." and the outro?

5 minute long freeze-frame shots where the camera slowly pans over shocked faces having a massive emotional reaction to every single clever move.

Just like I'd fast forward Dragon Ball Z every time Goku needs to use 3 episodes of grunting to charge up an energy ball attack.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#89

Post by sn9 »

knodi123 wrote: post #88
Jach wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you ever fast forward besides the intro/"last time on.." and the outro? ;) I would add a recommendation to watch the Japanese dub. I accidentally stumbled upon the English dub on Youtube recently, I didn't even know there was one, it was terrible...

> What would you ever fast forward besides the intro/"last time on.." and the outro? 5 minute long freeze-frame shots where the camera slowly pans over shocked faces having a massive emotional reaction to every single clever move. Just like I'd fast forward Dragon Ball Z every time Goku needs to use 3 episodes of grunting to charge up an energy ball attack.

That's why reading the manga is almost always the superior experience compared to watching the anime adaptation.

The adaptations usually insert so much unnecessary filler because they'd otherwise catch up to the latest manga chapter much more quickly. Your typical half-hour episode usually covers 2-3 chapters' worth of material. Without the filler, a year's worth of manga might be covered in half a season of anime.

Regarding HnG specifically, reading the manga has the additional advantages of not bothering with intros/outros/spoilery-previews and allowing you to avoid messing with pause buttons to get a better view of game boards. The art is also absolutely gorgeous, especially in the latter half of the series.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#90

Post by niij »

blubb-fish wrote: post #79
jdietrich wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. A teaching ladder is simply a cooperative effort to share skills. No money changes hands and there is no benefit to being at the top of the ladder other than kudos.

was just kidding ... LOL

I think people on Hacker News have a good sense of humor. However, with no indication of sarcasm, attempts at humor can instead make you look foolish. Try adding a winky-face next time, dummy ;-)
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