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Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

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Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#41
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the single biggest issue with introducing go to newcomers. In chess, the goal is crystal clear - capture the king. In go, the goal of having more points than your opponent is somehow very challenging to grasp in an intuitive way. There's a common advice to lose your first 50 games as quickly as possible ( http://senseis.xmp.net/?LoseYourFirst50GamesAsQuicklyAsPossi... ). This will give you some basic intuitio…

Plus you can generally see who's in front in Chess just by counting the value of the captured pieces. Where as I would not have been able to workout the result of the AlphaGo v Lee Sedol games just by looking at the final game board. The beauty of the game is appealing however so I want to get better at it. I'll working on losing more then :)

Typically evaluation of a Go board runs something like

(1) Identify all the groups.

Most important are any groups larger than about 4-6 stones or groups that cannot be sacrificed for some other reason. You'll often see some straggler group which exists purely to disconnect your opponents groups keeping them weak. That one is small but important!

(2) Determine their status.

Essentially, their opponent decided it was time to kill this group and tried with all their might would the group be able to survive? You can be fuzzy about this ("there are a lot of possibilities for this group to live") or even economical ("it would take a lot of turns for B to kill W's group here, is it worth it?").

(3) Decide who "owns" every empty intersection.

Once you've identified the strong, living groups you'll see that they probably capture territory because they surround some empty intersections. These spaces can be invaded or reduced if they are too large (so that the opponent could possible attack inside and make a living group) or if they have open spaces (where an opponent could threaten to stream inside). There will also be a lot of points in the early and middle game for which nobody really owns and you can evaluate if one player merely holds greater or lesser sway over those intersections.

(4) Subtract maybe 20 points for each weak group that can't be sacrificed.

Saving groups that must be saved is an expensive operation and your opponent will probably cash in on you doing so.

(5) If it's early or mid-game consider each player's global influence.

For instance, a common trade is that one player will make a living group in the corner and take points while the other player will surround that group on the "outside" producing a large wall facing the center. This wall cannot claim to make territory since it doesn't completely control any location, but it certainly makes battles nearby tilt in the favor of the wall owner. This will translate to cash elsewhere for that player.

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Don't try too hard at any step. Part of skilled judgement is being able to do each step accurately (and include more important factors) much in the same way that materiel balance in Chess can be hard to judge unless you know how to contextualize it.

Also note that a well-matched professional game will be decided by just 1 or 2 points. Until your judgement is very tight or the game is very near the end it can be hard to be precise enough to see that.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#42
post #38

I've started playing Go against a computer (SmartGo iOS on a 9x9 board) but I find the hard part is determining where you're making mistakes, what is a better move, why the computer did what it did etc. For instance the computer may ignore a capture to play elsewhere and it can be hard to work out why. I learnt to play Chess when I was young so I can't make a fair comparison but it feels like Chess is much easier to…

>For instance the computer may ignore a capture to play elsewhere and it can be hard to work out why. I think the biggest insight I had about Go when I was learning to play it is that the game commences on the entire board at once. At the beginning I was over-concentrating on a single "active" region. In reality, abandoning some "battle" and adding stones to an "unrelated" region is a perfectly sensible strategy as l…

I've had the same experience. It's easy to get drawn into petty skirmishes and ignore the larger play for territory.

A good rule of thumb = don't needlessly increase the margin of your victory for any particular part of the board

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#43

For the English speaking Go community, GoGameGuru is without question the most reliable online resource for great commentary on the most important matches between the world's top players (and of course more recently AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol). They also do translations of the best content from Korea's BadukTV - lessons, game commentary, famous problem sets, and more. GoGameGuru is a treasure trove, no question. That said…

Nice post! The one thing I think is missing is Dwyrin's YouTube videos and lectures:

https://www.youtube.com/user/dwyrin

He's all about how you can reach dan level just by being good at direction of play, even if you're not great at solving problems. Also just the fact that he grew up in America makes him a little easier to understand.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#44

I've started playing Go against a computer (SmartGo iOS on a 9x9 board) but I find the hard part is determining where you're making mistakes, what is a better move, why the computer did what it did etc. For instance the computer may ignore a capture to play elsewhere and it can be hard to work out why. I learnt to play Chess when I was young so I can't make a fair comparison but it feels like Chess is much easier to…

There are a set of forums where you can get reviews from stronger players at lifein19x19.com/forum/. Downthread, people have mentioned the go teaching ladder, which is a good site, but you may get faster feedback on the forums.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#46

For the English speaking Go community, GoGameGuru is without question the most reliable online resource for great commentary on the most important matches between the world's top players (and of course more recently AlphaGo vs. Lee Sedol). They also do translations of the best content from Korea's BadukTV - lessons, game commentary, famous problem sets, and more. GoGameGuru is a treasure trove, no question. That said…

This is a great post. I do think it should mention OGS (online-go.com) as an alternative to KGS. Some people may really not like installing a Java app for KGS.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#47
post #20

The best introduction to the game that I've ever found is "The Interactive Way to Go" http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/

Seconded. The only downside is that it's using Flash.

Yeah, it would be awesome if someone would modernize it. Or do something like Chesscademy for Go.

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#48
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The general principle is that captures aren't actually worth a whole lot. Territory (area under your control) is where it's at. If a capture is a means of getting more territory, that's grand, but on it's own it's not worth much at all. Does this help your self diagnosis? If the computer ignored a capture it's because it didn't actually lead to a lot of territory gained, whereas whatever move it played probably did.

That thinking does help, I did read that on one of the sites as well but in some cases the capture appears to mean the loss of territory itself in addition to the actual pieces and it's hard to weigh up the value of each territory.

Another reason the computer might ignore a direct capture is because the stones are already "dead", it doesn't need to waste a move to actually capture them unless you futilely try to save them. Solving tsumego might help you see those cases better when it's not as simple a case of leaving your stones in atari. But yeah, even if you can "save" them next move it might still ignore the capture if there's a bigger (in terms of gaining / securing territory) move on the board, especially if your save actually isn't making them alive yet.

I think scoring and score estimating is one of the hardest things to understand (for full games I still often use a $5 android app where I just upload a picture of the board game, help it convert to an SGF, and then it auto-scores it, though sometimes it's faster to just count by hand), especially since there's multiple ways of doing it. With simple territory scoring when the game ends the dead stones that haven't actually been captured yet still get removed and added to the prisoners pile and the prisoners fill in your other territory so it might feel extra painful to lose stones... With area/stone scoring you still remove the dead stones but prisoners don't (directly) matter for the score, since you're just counting stones on the board plus uncontested area. But if a game was X moves with black having X/2 stones but white only having (X/2 - 10) stones on the board, clearly (assuming X is even and no passes, or if passes then giving up pass stones) 10 white stones were captured at some point, so there's already that relative difference in score before counting anything else. With some qualifications, the results (and the relative scores themselves) from each counting system will be the same. Thinking more about your relative score instead of giving each player actual numbers might help; I feel slightly better if I lost by 10 than if I had a negative score, say -5 to 5...

Re: Go Game Guru – Learn all about the board game Go

#50
This YouTube channel has very useful and informative content. A caveat: the presenter there has a very thick Chinese accent. I personally have no problem with it but some people have commented that they can't understand what he's saying.

https://www.youtube.com/user/gocommentary/videos

This is one of the best game commentaries in my opinion. It has subtitles to help with the accent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O-lwNzN0G0

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