Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Being a Female Developer

andela.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 71 posts

Re: Being a Female Developer

#41

Post by adevine »

Frondo wrote: post #37
monksy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're a man. I'm not sure you're in the best position to see. I found the sexism right there. ("Is man must not be able to see or have valid experiences.")

Well, of course a man can have valid experiences. A man can't have the experience of being a woman, though, pretty much by definition. That's not sexism, the claim that a man can't experience life as a woman would. In fact, that seems like a really uncontroversial statement.

I thought there was a fascinating response to a Reddit question a couple years ago by a transgendered woman that asked "How did people react to you after you transitioned?" She said that, as a man, people were much more likely to show interest in her ideas, and she was much more likely to receive praise from customers at her job (IIRC she worked at Subway). As a woman, people were much more interested to hear her talk about her emotions than when she was a man.

I thought it was very interesting, because she essentially "served as her own control." The only thing that changed in the situation was how people perceived her gender - the ideas, feelings and performance were from the exact same person. It certainly made me reflect more on unconscious biases I might have.

Re: Being a Female Developer

#42

Post by Joky »

adevine wrote: post #41
Frondo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, of course a man can have valid experiences. A man can't have the experience of being a woman, though, pretty much by definition. That's not sexism, the claim that a man can't experience life as a woman would. In fact, that seems like a really uncontroversial statement.

I thought there was a fascinating response to a Reddit question a couple years ago by a transgendered woman that asked "How did people react to you after you transitioned?" She said that, as a man, people were much more likely to show interest in her ideas , and she was much more likely to receive praise from customers at her job (IIRC she worked at Subway). As a woman, people were much more interested to hear her ta…

> The only thing that changed in the situation was how people perceived her gender

Absolutely not, the "observer" (i.e. herself) is in a different position and probably in different state of mind.

Re: Being a Female Developer

#43

Post by tzs »

craigvn wrote: post #21
tracker1 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're just starting out, and not doing this, you won't get very far, at least not very fast... if just starting out is in school, or out... It takes at least 5 years to master any skill/craft... and even then given the churn in tech, specifically with development, you have to put more in to get to a good point. I don't do as much on my own time as I used to... but I absolutely did for the first decade of my caree…

If you are not doing personal projects or work on the side you will never be top 5-10% of devs. But the majority of devs are building reports and doing maintenance for some fortune 500 insurance co, they are doing fine.

> If you are not doing personal projects or work on the side you will never be top 5-10% of devs

That's a bit too strong a generalization, I believe. To become and remain a top 5-10% developer you need to do varied and challenging projects, but I see no need for them to be personal projects or side work. It is quite possible for one's regular job to provide the variety and challenge necessary to develop and maintain top developer skills. It can be hard to find such jobs, but they are out there.

Re: Being a Female Developer

#44

Post by MollyR »

mamoswined wrote: post #32
wmsiler wrote: post #20

Unlike most of the other commenters, I'm not a huge fan of this article. From the article, it seems the author hasn't really experienced much, if any, gender discrimination at work. That's great; it really is refreshing to hear stories of women in tech who are judged purely on their merits, as they should be. However, her two takeaways from her experience are, "your skills will speak louder than your gender," and, "t…

Being female, and a developer, and having worked in several other fields, I think people overestimate the sexism in tech and underestimate it elsewhere. I'm ashamed to say I was one of the "who needs feminism?" women in my late teens and early twenties because I have had a good experience in tech. Then I took a journalism job...and actually experienced it for myself and saw so many other women experience it. Sexism i…

Interesting point, I had the vague feeling as well, that sexism in tech is much lower than other fields. I never really felt discriminated against in tech, people went out of their way to help me. Biology was a totally different story. I couldn't tell if it was cause I was a woman, or because I didn't have a md or phd.

Re: Being a Female Developer

#45

Post by atom-morgan »

mamoswined wrote: post #35

Honestly having been a "female developer" for 10+ years my main thought on the subject of being that is it's just a job. And it's a job that's really not for everyone. I've tried to sell a lot of people I've worked with in other fields on it, both men and women, and there are a lot of things that keep people away from it. And most of them are not related to gender. I also have learned to have a healthy suspicion of c…

I've started to think this as well. I believe people, when confronted with dicks at work, are going to attribute it to something that differentiates them from the majority. Someone made a comment that insults your intelligence? Well they must have said it because you're a woman, black, gay, etc. In reality, I think a lot of us go through similar experiences and attribute its occurrence to different characteristics.

Re: Being a Female Developer

#46

Post by DanBC »

atom-morgan wrote: post #45
mamoswined wrote: post #35

Honestly having been a "female developer" for 10+ years my main thought on the subject of being that is it's just a job. And it's a job that's really not for everyone. I've tried to sell a lot of people I've worked with in other fields on it, both men and women, and there are a lot of things that keep people away from it. And most of them are not related to gender. I also have learned to have a healthy suspicion of c…

I've started to think this as well. I believe people, when confronted with dicks at work, are going to attribute it to something that differentiates them from the majority. Someone made a comment that insults your intelligence? Well they must have said it because you're a woman, black, gay, etc. In reality, I think a lot of us go through similar experiences and attribute its occurrence to different characteristics.

Your point - that some people are dicks and they are dicks to everybody is obviously true.

But you seem to miss the point that some people are dicks, but are mostly dicks to women, or black people, or disabled people. They may not realise they're being dicks, but other people will recognise elements of dickishness or outright dickery.

And also that fighting the dicks makes life better for everyone.

I find it weird that when women say (for example) "We are sexually assaulted so often a separate women only London Underground carriage would be welcome, until law enforcement and society can pressure offenders to stop offending" they are met with hostility and denial, rather than a willingness to try to understand the severity of the problem.

Re: Being a Female Developer

#47

Post by atom-morgan »

DanBC wrote: post #46
atom-morgan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started to think this as well. I believe people, when confronted with dicks at work, are going to attribute it to something that differentiates them from the majority. Someone made a comment that insults your intelligence? Well they must have said it because you're a woman, black, gay, etc. In reality, I think a lot of us go through similar experiences and attribute its occurrence to different characteristics.

Your point - that some people are dicks and they are dicks to everybody is obviously true. But you seem to miss the point that some people are dicks, but are mostly dicks to women, or black people, or disabled people. They may not realise they're being dicks, but other people will recognise elements of dickishness or outright dickery. And also that fighting the dicks makes life better for everyone. I find it weird th…

I'm not missing that point at all. But I would ask why is someone being a dick to someone because they don't like their personality or hobbies so significantly different than someone doing the same because of a handicap or skin color? People are going to hate other people for a variety of reasons yet we single out a few and get a little more outraged about it than the others.

Concerning your last point - I'd guess they're met with hostility and denial because they legitimately don't believe the issue is as widespread as many are led to believe.

Re: Being a Female Developer

#48

Post by DanBC »

atom-morgan wrote: post #47
DanBC wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point - that some people are dicks and they are dicks to everybody is obviously true. But you seem to miss the point that some people are dicks, but are mostly dicks to women, or black people, or disabled people. They may not realise they're being dicks, but other people will recognise elements of dickishness or outright dickery. And also that fighting the dicks makes life better for everyone. I find it weird th…

I'm not missing that point at all. But I would ask why is someone being a dick to someone because they don't like their personality or hobbies so significantly different than someone doing the same because of a handicap or skin color? People are going to hate other people for a variety of reasons yet we single out a few and get a little more outraged about it than the others. Concerning your last point - I'd guess th…

Women asking for the carriages are met with hostility and denial. The people providing that hostility and denial might "legitimately believe" anything, but if they haven't bothered reading the crime survey or the crime stats their "legitimate belief" is less legitimate. It's more opinion.

As for why we single out people who hate others because of skin colour, but not because of say hobbies: A large number of people have been murdered (or beaten, or denied employment, or denied housing, or etc etc) because they are black. I don't think I can find more than a handful of philatelists who were murdered because they collect stamps.

I think the touchiness around discrimination based on skin colour is understandable and based on plenty of evidence.

Re: Being a Female Developer

#49

Post by atom-morgan »

DanBC wrote: post #48
atom-morgan wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not missing that point at all. But I would ask why is someone being a dick to someone because they don't like their personality or hobbies so significantly different than someone doing the same because of a handicap or skin color? People are going to hate other people for a variety of reasons yet we single out a few and get a little more outraged about it than the others. Concerning your last point - I'd guess th…

Women asking for the carriages are met with hostility and denial. The people providing that hostility and denial might "legitimately believe" anything, but if they haven't bothered reading the crime survey or the crime stats their "legitimate belief" is less legitimate. It's more opinion. As for why we single out people who hate others because of skin colour, but not because of say hobbies: A large number of people h…

There’s plenty of people on both sides of the wage gap. Those crime surveys may be flawed in the same way campus sexual assaults had a very generous definition of sexual assault. I’m not sure in this case. I was just throwing out a possible reason for resisting crime statistics. Plenty of people disagree about how those are collected.

Yes of course, a lot of people aren’t killed for collecting stamps. But I don’t think many people today are killed specifically for being black or gay either. It does happen, yes. But I believe the overwhelming majority of people just carry on with life. We should all remember that whites vs. colored fountains were deemed lawful by the government.

I truly believe most people today just want to go to work, do their job, and get paid regardless of the gender or color of the people around them. And honestly, what more would you expect? We live in the country with the greatest amount of diversity you can’t escape. Americans think Americans are the least tolerant and my travels to other countries and interactions with different people shows me the exact opposite.

Edit: I say this as someone who grew up in the South. I lived around racists but most of that stays in their head.

Re: Being a Female Developer

#50

Post by pjc50 »

tzs wrote: post #43
craigvn wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not doing personal projects or work on the side you will never be top 5-10% of devs. But the majority of devs are building reports and doing maintenance for some fortune 500 insurance co, they are doing fine.

> If you are not doing personal projects or work on the side you will never be top 5-10% of devs That's a bit too strong a generalization, I believe. To become and remain a top 5-10% developer you need to do varied and challenging projects, but I see no need for them to be personal projects or side work. It is quite possible for one's regular job to provide the variety and challenge necessary to develop and maintain…

People really need to be more specific about what they're measuring when they say "top".
Post reply on HN