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Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

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Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#171

Post by ptaipale »

EdHominem wrote: post #162
ptaipale wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the perps are dead, did not appear to be part of some organized group A reasonable reason for inquiry here is to actually try to make sure if they were part of some organized group. "Appear not to be" is not quite enough. This is a valid reason to investigate even if they are dead. How did they get radicalized, etc. Not that it is a good enough reason to enforce breaking of encryption in the way proposed, but in a…

> "Appear not to be" is not quite enough. It has to be, because there is no perfect. Everything is a numbers game between ever-more unlikely hypothetical evidence that might yield a valuable unknown, and the cost of collecting it. By such completist thinking, we should examine every image and video in the world because they might show up in the background of a birthday party video or vacation selfie, giving us anothe…

There is no perfect, but I think that by ordinary police standards in any developed country, not trying to investigate this kind of perp's phones would be too imperfect. It would be sloppy police work and any police officer deciding not to try to inspect the phone would be vulnerable to accusations of misconduct.

That doesn't mean that I agree that Apple should be forced to break the encryption. It means the police really have a duty to investigate.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#172

Post by TACIXAT »

EdHominem wrote: post #169
TACIXAT wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that privacy and secure communications are the best means to protect kids in the first world, there are still enough horrible people in the world who rape children and take pictures, as well, there is child sex trafficking. We shouldn't forget that these things exist and reduce child porn to snapchat and selfies.

> there are still enough horrible people in the world who [emotion instead of substance] What's the evidence that we need [abusive bill of the day] to fix that? Why do we think the potential harm averted is greater than the harm we know comes from overreaching laws and abusive governments? Human trafficking at all, sex or otherwise, is horrible, common, and relatively easily stopped without new laws - at least for th…

I think you're reading a little more into my comment than was there. I didn't agree with what the parent comment said about child porn. I'm very much in favor of secure communication channels and privacy.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#173

Post by mamon »

greenisland wrote: post #77
cryoshon wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government/police types trend heavily Republican, though. I assume many of them are voting for Trump.

Actually, either far left or far right lean control freak. Hitler and his Fascist ally, Mussolini, were both far-right contol freaks. Josef Stalin and his predecessors were far left control freaks. People in power like control, contrary to what they might say. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. People want to be elected because of their egos. Full stop. There is no other reason. No one does it becaus…

I feel the need to correct that mistake every time I see it: Hitler and Mussolini were both far-left.

This is not a coincidence that Hitler's political party (NSDAP) was called National Socialists. Hitler himself was the fan of Karl Marx.

It is worth remembering that effectively ALL totalitarian systems of 20th century were leftist.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#174

Post by greenisland »

mamon wrote: post #173
greenisland wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, either far left or far right lean control freak. Hitler and his Fascist ally, Mussolini, were both far-right contol freaks. Josef Stalin and his predecessors were far left control freaks. People in power like control, contrary to what they might say. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. People want to be elected because of their egos. Full stop. There is no other reason. No one does it becaus…

I feel the need to correct that mistake every time I see it: Hitler and Mussolini were both far-left. This is not a coincidence that Hitler's political party (NSDAP) was called National Socialists. Hitler himself was the fan of Karl Marx. It is worth remembering that effectively ALL totalitarian systems of 20th century were leftist.

http://seanmunger.com/2015/09/16/a-cruel-distortion-of-histo...

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#175

Post by EdHominem »

ptaipale wrote: post #171
EdHominem wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Appear not to be" is not quite enough. It has to be, because there is no perfect. Everything is a numbers game between ever-more unlikely hypothetical evidence that might yield a valuable unknown, and the cost of collecting it. By such completist thinking, we should examine every image and video in the world because they might show up in the background of a birthday party video or vacation selfie, giving us anothe…

There is no perfect, but I think that by ordinary police standards in any developed country, not trying to investigate this kind of perp's phones would be too imperfect. It would be sloppy police work and any police officer deciding not to try to inspect the phone would be vulnerable to accusations of misconduct. That doesn't mean that I agree that Apple should be forced to break the encryption. It means the police r…

I'm not saying they shouldn't be interested... What if, instead of simply being locked, the phone was eaten by a pelican that flew out over the ocean and died. Gone. Should we dredge the ocean to find the phone? It's a duty to do so, right?

The FBI have tried, and failed. How much more should they dredge before we stop harping on about this one piece of potential evidence?

In this case they have the phone physically in hand so they feel blocked and powerless, but from a cost-benefit point of view it might as well be at the bottom of the ocean.

Doesn't their duty compel them to investigate the most-likely to payout leads, not play political games over high-profile issues?

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#176

Post by drcube »

wyager wrote: post #163
drcube wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not going to be a very successful entrepreneur if your customers are broke.

You can't create wealth out of thin air. The government can't make people un-broke without someone else paying for it. Either you're losing money to taxes or some of your customer base is losing to taxes. Either way, no benefit (unless your company targets the poor in particular).

You can create wealth out of thin air. The economy is not a zero sum game.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#177

Post by wyager »

drcube wrote: post #176
wyager wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't create wealth out of thin air. The government can't make people un-broke without someone else paying for it. Either you're losing money to taxes or some of your customer base is losing to taxes. Either way, no benefit (unless your company targets the poor in particular).

You can create wealth out of thin air. The economy is not a zero sum game.

Ok, that's fair, there are several mechanisms (increased resource extraction, new tech, etc.) that can create wealth. However, taking money from one group and giving it to another does not create wealth. There is also an administrative overhead associated with such mechanisms, which could have been put towards more productive activities.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#178

Post by ptaipale »

EdHominem wrote: post #175
ptaipale wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no perfect, but I think that by ordinary police standards in any developed country, not trying to investigate this kind of perp's phones would be too imperfect. It would be sloppy police work and any police officer deciding not to try to inspect the phone would be vulnerable to accusations of misconduct. That doesn't mean that I agree that Apple should be forced to break the encryption. It means the police r…

I'm not saying they shouldn't be interested... What if, instead of simply being locked, the phone was eaten by a pelican that flew out over the ocean and died. Gone. Should we dredge the ocean to find the phone? It's a duty to do so, right? The FBI have tried, and failed. How much more should they dredge before we stop harping on about this one piece of potential evidence? In this case they have the phone physically…

Alas, FBI's chances of breaking the encryption here (with support conscripted from Apple) are far higher than finding that pelican. By many orders of magnitude.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#179

Post by EdHominem »

ptaipale wrote: post #178
EdHominem wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be interested... What if, instead of simply being locked, the phone was eaten by a pelican that flew out over the ocean and died. Gone. Should we dredge the ocean to find the phone? It's a duty to do so, right? The FBI have tried, and failed. How much more should they dredge before we stop harping on about this one piece of potential evidence? In this case they have the phone physically…

Alas, FBI's chances of breaking the encryption here (with support conscripted from Apple) are far higher than finding that pelican. By many orders of magnitude.

Their chance of beating a confession out of someone is pretty high too.

And when you consider the chance of there being worthwhile, actionable, data months later after their failures, finding the pelican is the safe part of the bet.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#180

Post by richmarr »

jacquesm wrote: post #133
richmarr wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine there's a Venn diagram of overlap between what a nutjob thinks is worth hiding and what would be of interest to law enforcement organisations. For example I doubt many of these extremists would both trying to hide information that could be used for psychological profiling of future attackers

The psychological profiling of future attackers has nothing to do with getting away with this push to access that particular phone. That's simply not even on the radar at this point, the FBI would be laughed out of any court they went to if they presented that as the reason why they want access. Their fig-leaf is that the phone may contain valuable information regarding this particular crime.

Criticising the example of psychological profiling doesn't address my actual point.
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