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Illegal Math

blog.prakashvenkat.com

71–80 of 106 posts

Re: Illegal Math

#71
post #18
post #12

Buried in the article below the clever though not original point that encryption is not math, is a much more important point: This debate should really be about whether or not people have the right to have secrets. If your answer is "no" then you ought to explain how you square that with the fact that many of our everyday activities can be considered criminal in some jurisdictions.

Is the position "people have the right to have secrets, but companies don't have the right to help them" coherent (not saying I endorse it)? We already accept that phone companies can (be forced to) allow wiretapping with a warrant. They aren't allowed to prevent the government from wiretapping. So why would a company be permitted to sell devices with encryption? You also need to weaken "allowed to have secrets" to "…

I'm starting with the unstated premise that we all have secrets in our heads.

Then as many have pointed out, that these devices are becoming extensions of our minds.

So I can see those companies thinking that they have a corporate responsibility to protect their users. Especially if not doing so puts their users in danger.

I don't assume that freedom loving countries like the US are the only countries where warrants are issued. Some warrants are issued in other countries, some of them with oppressive laws, and device makers need to think about users in those countries as well, not just about US users.

A somewhat scary discussion, but one that we might see sometime, would be is there some kind of metric we can apply to governments to see whether their judicial process is up to snuff in terms of protection of rights, where we then create systems that respect only those warrants from jurisdictions that meet a standard of rights protection. In other words build into whatever solution a recognition that not all warrants are created equal.

Not that this would surmount the security issues of having a backdoor that could be hacked. That's such a devastating flaw in the anti-Apple side that I'm not sure it can be overcome without the help of blinders.

Re: Illegal Math

#72
post #67
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mechanical and automatic nature of evidence gathering is a real difference, and goes well to argue against NSA-style warrantless crawling. I think for warrants, though, we're looking at a different beast. By their nature they are targeted. And people have been compelled to provide passwords in the court of law(See [0]). The right against self-incrimination is relatively narrow, so as to not hinder the government'…

> And people have been compelled to provide passwords in the court of law You can have encrypted data that accept two different passwords, producing different decrypted data of your choice. This is like the 2nd code that mute the home security alarm when you are forced to do it, but still calls the police.

Duress codes and embassy grade encryption are an interesting topic. Attempting to address the real world implications of "rubber hose cryptanalysis" is increasing important.

Re: Illegal Math

#73
post #3

Disclaimer: I agree with the author on the encryption debate. However, it's a slippery slope to say that encryption can't be illegal because in is math, and math can't be illegal. It's equivalent to say that making bombs is chemistry, and chemistry can't be illegal. It's an oversimplification. Presenting the practical consequences of a backdoor produces a far more sound argument.

The difference is that math is an abstract concept with no physical manifestation. I can encrypt something in my head, but I can't make a physical bomb in my head. Even when an encryption algorithm is implemented on a computer, it's still not a physical object, it's just a mathematical algorithm. A computer simulation of explosive chemical reaction is not going to get you arrested, why should an encryption algorithm?

A computer simulation of a nuclear explosion could be considered illegal to possess under the "Born Secret" doctrine applied by the US government, depending on the circumstances.

Re: Illegal Math

#74
post #34

One of the problems with outlawing encryption is that it takes nothing to prove the crime, and therefore it is impossible to prove one's innocence. Would it be possible to outlaw the possession or transfer of data that appears random? Nearly all data is random data, and nearly all processes randomize data. All data could be "proven" to contain information under at least one encryption scheme. It is the ultimate guilt…

Except, the law is about "reasonable doubt", and has been dealing with this kind of thing for hundreds of years. This isn't new magic.

By a similar argument, any phrase someone says to someone else might have been code for "kill that guy". Except usually it's not, and unless there is convincing evidence you did mean to kill that guy, you'll be set free.

Conversely, if you have previously agreed a code where "2+2=4" means "kill that guy", and then you say "2+2=4", you can't argue in court that "Oh, I was just saying a true statement of maths, how could that possibly be illegal?"

Re: Illegal Math

#75
post #25

Seems a little like saying, you burn some gas and your car goes, and if it goes 80mph, that's just physics. You can't make it illegal to obey the laws of physics? Plants are just biology and burning things is just chemistry. You can't make it illegal for a plant to grow and for a human burn it and inhale it, can you? Well...if you pass a law that pi=3 it doesn't change the nature of the universe, but it does regulate…

> Seems a little like saying, you burn some gas and your car goes, and if it goes 80mph, that's just physics. So, if you want to try to use this metaphor, the situation is actually a little bit different. Try this: "Seat belts make it safe to go faster than 20 MPH, and tolerable to go faster than 80 MPH. Unfortunately, sometimes bank robbers use them while going faster than 80 MPH, so we have to ban seat belts entire…

Good one: brakes make it possible for bank robbers to travel faster than 80mph in a car, therefore the police must have a way to remotely disable brakes to catch escaping bank robbers. Oh you can trust the police the keep the brake-disabler safe from terrorists, don't worry.

Re: Illegal Math

#76

Seems a little like saying, you burn some gas and your car goes, and if it goes 80mph, that's just physics. You can't make it illegal to obey the laws of physics? Plants are just biology and burning things is just chemistry. You can't make it illegal for a plant to grow and for a human burn it and inhale it, can you? Well...if you pass a law that pi=3 it doesn't change the nature of the universe, but it does regulate…

It's more like saying if you draw a picture of a car going 80mph, that's just a drawing. Doing physics or chemistry can directly harm people. Doing math or drawing pictures can't.

Wrong math certainly do harm people directly. One example: Ariane 5

Re: Illegal Math

#77
post #28
post #14

>Various government agencies are crooning that they should be able to knock down whichever doors they please because they're the government. I think this analogy is apt but it actually works against the author's point. Our government has legally been allowed to knock down whichever door it has wanted to for centuries assuming it has received the proper warrants. An encryption door cannot be knocked down. That is a ve…

> Now that information is all locked away behind encryption. Moreover, more and more of that persistent information is casual communication that historically would have been securely erased by the whispering winds of time. No judge can grant investigators a time machine to travel back and spy on thousands of conversations over the last 5 years to fish for evidence. But now they can have the next-best thing (and getti…

> But now they can have the next-best thing...

I think the discussion will get more useful when we'll stop talking about them and instead will talk about us. In civilized countries, the government represents the people. Law-enforcing organisms are mandated by people. The question is not whether some stranger wants to be able to enforce the law: the problem is whether we want to be able to enforce the law.

Re: Illegal Math

#78
post #14

>Various government agencies are crooning that they should be able to knock down whichever doors they please because they're the government. I think this analogy is apt but it actually works against the author's point. Our government has legally been allowed to knock down whichever door it has wanted to for centuries assuming it has received the proper warrants. An encryption door cannot be knocked down. That is a ve…

I feel part of the problem is that people recognize what you say, and understand its helpful, even necessary for government to have warranted access. The big BUT however is many of us are losing trust in our governments around the world as digital collection and access has been systematically abused in almost every major developed nation. Until governments can return confidence in their actions and motivations Avoid…

> digital collection and access has been systematically abused in almost every major developed nation.

I understand that the NSA issue was a bad surprise for many many people but, actually, who has been damaged by those practices?

Re: Illegal Math

#79
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing physics or chemistry can directly harm people. Doing math or drawing pictures can't. This argument might have worked, up until the point when they criminalized cartoon child pornography. You will perhaps agree that encryption has the potential to directly harm people just as physics or chemistry? No.

From what I remember, the child pon drawing law was about people taking child pon photography, and running it through a Photoshop filter to make it look like a drawing. That way people were trying to get around the law. Also, it was trivial to return the 'drawing' back into a photo by reversing the filter.

Hm, but then this is something different, if you just have to reverse a filter, then normal child porn laws apply, I would think.

Re: Illegal Math

#80
post #34

One of the problems with outlawing encryption is that it takes nothing to prove the crime, and therefore it is impossible to prove one's innocence. Would it be possible to outlaw the possession or transfer of data that appears random? Nearly all data is random data, and nearly all processes randomize data. All data could be "proven" to contain information under at least one encryption scheme. It is the ultimate guilt…

Except, the law is about "reasonable doubt", and has been dealing with this kind of thing for hundreds of years. This isn't new magic. By a similar argument, any phrase someone says to someone else might have been code for "kill that guy". Except usually it's not, and unless there is convincing evidence you did mean to kill that guy, you'll be set free. Conversely, if you have previously agreed a code where "2+2=4" m…

You're talking about reasonable doubt on an order to murder, I'm talking about reasonable doubt on the possession of encrypted data. Strongly encrypted data looks random and the only way to tell the difference is to have the decryption key. So is withholding the key sufficient for reasonable doubt? If it is, the law is useless; if it isn't, any random data is evidence of guilt.
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