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Illegal Math

blog.prakashvenkat.com

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Re: Illegal Math

#31

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

slg wrote: post #14

>Various government agencies are crooning that they should be able to knock down whichever doors they please because they're the government. I think this analogy is apt but it actually works against the author's point. Our government has legally been allowed to knock down whichever door it has wanted to for centuries assuming it has received the proper warrants. An encryption door cannot be knocked down. That is a ve…

>Our government has legally been allowed to knock down whichever door it has wanted to for centuries assuming it has received the proper warrants.

But it hasn't been able to trawl for evidence mechanically and automatically. Now it has the technology to do that.

The default has always been privacy, for practical reasons. Encryption simply continues that tradition by continuing to make evidence gathering non-trivial.

Re: Illegal Math

#32

Post by Gustomaximus »

slg wrote: post #14

>Various government agencies are crooning that they should be able to knock down whichever doors they please because they're the government. I think this analogy is apt but it actually works against the author's point. Our government has legally been allowed to knock down whichever door it has wanted to for centuries assuming it has received the proper warrants. An encryption door cannot be knocked down. That is a ve…

I feel part of the problem is that people recognize what you say, and understand its helpful, even necessary for government to have warranted access. The big BUT however is many of us are losing trust in our governments around the world as digital collection and access has been systematically abused in almost every major developed nation.

Until governments can return confidence in their actions and motivations Avoid an even low chance 1984 scenario is more important than making law enforcement/counter terrorism do their jobs the old fashion way.

Re: Illegal Math

#33

Post by Lexarius »

kenningrmd wrote: post #11

Serious question: Even if a government makes encryption illegal, if I have the source code to gpg then I can still encrypt anything I want right? In other words, even if we lose secure access via SSL because of a master cipher, nobody can make the gpg source code, for example, disappear entirely.

The government also can't stop you from robbing your neighbor, but that's not how laws work. Laws are about punishing you after the fact. If they catch you, of course.

Re: Illegal Math

#34

Post by jimworm »

One of the problems with outlawing encryption is that it takes nothing to prove the crime, and therefore it is impossible to prove one's innocence.

Would it be possible to outlaw the possession or transfer of data that appears random? Nearly all data is random data, and nearly all processes randomize data. All data could be "proven" to contain information under at least one encryption scheme. It is the ultimate guilty until proven innocent argument.

If your credit card were erased with a magnet, could you now be prosecuted for the possession of encrypted data, because it could be proven that using a certain one-time pad it could be transformed into something meaningful to humans?

It doesn't end there. All things could be interpreted as information. We would have to start explaining the arrangement of books on a shelf, of spices in a rack, colours of stitching in clothing. If encryption were illegal, we would all be guilty all the time.

Fine, some would argue that random data isn't proof of guilt. What about the means of encryption? Now all random data are one-time pad keys. Prepare to rot in jail.

Re: Illegal Math

#35

Post by bcook »

I equate encryption (right to privacy) with free-speech.

I could babble about the similarities, but smarter, better educated minds have already done that.

Re: Illegal Math

#36

Post by shirro »

Mostly the maths just enables easy key distribution and makes encryption viable for commerce and privacy. I don't see the public benefit in restricting this. It seems more targeted at ordinary citizens than criminals or foreign powers.

If all you want to do is bring down the government then you can distribute one time pads on microsd cards and there is not much legislation can do to stop that. Any governments planning to ban xor?

Re: Illegal Math

#37

Post by zardo »

x5n1 wrote: post #22
chimeracoder wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Things like personal notes, journals, communications all used to be accessible to the government through warrants. Now that information is all locked away behind encryption. The government already has plenty of ways to collect evidence through legal means. A judge can compel you to provide access to your company files, to unlock your home, to decrypt your computer, etc. If you don't comply with the discovery proces…

People die all the time after committing nefarious crimes. In this case the police killed them. Maybe the police is to blame for the fact that we can not get to the truth about the crime. If there is any truth to be found, other than disillusioned religious people go on a murderous rampage all on their own. I mean justice, well in many cases there can't be justice. The long arm of the law can't reach everyone anywher…

Dead men take secrets to the grave every day.

Brain communication interfaces aren't that far off though, so maybe we can solve this "problem" with the our minds being dark to the FBI in a decade or two.

Re: Illegal Math

#39

Post by venning »

bfstein wrote: post #3

Disclaimer: I agree with the author on the encryption debate. However, it's a slippery slope to say that encryption can't be illegal because in is math, and math can't be illegal. It's equivalent to say that making bombs is chemistry, and chemistry can't be illegal. It's an oversimplification. Presenting the practical consequences of a backdoor produces a far more sound argument.

To your point, bombs are not chemistry, bombs are the application of chemistry. Encryption is not math, encryption is the application of math.

Re: Illegal Math

#40

Post by Taniwha »

Did the US supreme court (in 1877) not find?:

"No law of Congress can place in the hands of officials connected with the Postal Service any authority to invade the secrecy of letters and such sealed packages in the mail; and all regulations adopted as to mail matter of this kind must be in subordination to the great principle embodied in the fourth amendment of the Constitution."

(Ex parte Jackson, 96 U.S. 727, 733 (1877))

Why does this not also apply to newly invented forms of communication

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