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Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

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Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#191

Post by sospep »

st3v3r wrote: post #178
forgetsusername wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everybody I know from school who were offered the option to work in the US have picked up their Canadian degrees and left. This is what young people do; they adventure. Then, many times, they come back to their roots to settle down. I'm sure there're a few people around these parts with anecdata regarding the joys of finding housing and raising a family in the SF Bay Area.

How will they come back if there isn't a tech scene waiting for them?

There will be a tech scene, the Vancouver portion of that scene may 1 day be smaller than what it is now.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#192

Post by potatolicious »

mathattack wrote: post #51
lewisl9029 wrote: post #12

As someone who's lived in Vancouver for more than 10 years, then went to Waterloo for school (and lived in Toronto for most of my co-ops/internships), I think we Canadians should be more worried about highly educated millennials fleeing Canada entirely. Everybody I know from school who were offered the option to work in the US have picked up their Canadian degrees and left. To the Canadian tech industry: How are you…

According to the article real estate costs in Vancouver are half that of San Francisco. Are salaries half too?

They can be. It's more accurate to say that Vancouver has a narrower range of salaries with a lower ceiling.

Right now I'm in NYC making about 4x what I would make in Vancouver for a similar job (disregarding exchange rate! It'd be ~5-6x if we include exchange rate), so yeah, still way ahead despite NYC's astronomical cost of living.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#193

Post by Grishnakh »

pjc50 wrote: post #34
cat-dev-null wrote: post #27

Assuming one has a really good heater and sleeping bag, it legal/possible/affordable to live in a VW bus in say south Vancouver? Renting in places like NYC, SF these days seems most people are lemmingly throwing money away in an unaffordable attempt to buy faux status while going into debt and gaining no balance sheet because "everyone else is doing it." Unless you've sold a series to HBO, living below one's means is…

This is no way to live for more than a few months, though. It's not really an environment in which you can raise a family.

Maybe he's single and has given up on the idea of finding a girlfriend. This is a site for programmers, is it not?

Just look at the Japanese: it's becoming popular over there with younger people to just not bother with relationships (or having families obviously), because they're too much trouble. Already in large cities here in the US, I'm noticing that a huge number of women in their 30s-40s are just bypassing the part about finding a husband and are becoming single moms on their own.

I predict that long-term relationships (including marriage) are going to become obsolete pretty soon in developed nations.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#194

Post by pkaler »

illumin8 wrote: post #180

This seems to be a direct result of capital flight from China. Wealthy chinese who are able to get their money out (through corruption, money laundering, or otherwise) are looking for somewhere safe to park their money for the inevitable decline in value of the yuan. China can only artificially peg their money to the dollar for so long, until they run out of dollars, and they are drawing down their reserves at a reco…

I'm standing at my desk in my apartment that I pay $1589/month for. An equivalent apartment in SF or NYC would be $3500 or higher.

The problems are two-fold.

1) Vancouver hasn't created a single-family detached home lot since the 1970s. There is an ocean to the west, the US border to the south, Burrard Inlet and mountains to the north. There just isn't any land. The only way to expand is east into the Fraser Valley.

The single-family detached home is dead. Live in a condo. Everyone gets a view. Everyone gets sunshine. Everyone gets services. Everyone gets a park a block away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouverism

2) Vancouver companies pay dick-all for salaries because Vancouver companies make dick-all for revenue. Everyone that lives here and can afford works or consults for a company that is not from Vancouver. A tech company that can't afford to pay an employee to rent a $1589/month apartment is not a tech company.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#195

Post by dghughes »

illumin8 wrote: post #180

This seems to be a direct result of capital flight from China. Wealthy chinese who are able to get their money out (through corruption, money laundering, or otherwise) are looking for somewhere safe to park their money for the inevitable decline in value of the yuan. China can only artificially peg their money to the dollar for so long, until they run out of dollars, and they are drawing down their reserves at a reco…

> This seems to be a direct result of capital flight from China.

It's even happening to tiny PEI in the east we have seen a massive surge of Chinese people (to clarify yes from China) investing in and living in the province.

Five years ago you could walk down the street and it was typical small town Canada last summer I went to a Starbucks and every single person was Chinese. There are now at least two if not three Buddhist monasteries too.

I'm not complaining I like the new investment and more people living here I'm saying it's not just a Vancouver or Toronto thing. Although here it's more business investing here not so much speculative condo buying.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#196

Post by illumin8 »

pkaler wrote: post #194
illumin8 wrote: post #180

This seems to be a direct result of capital flight from China. Wealthy chinese who are able to get their money out (through corruption, money laundering, or otherwise) are looking for somewhere safe to park their money for the inevitable decline in value of the yuan. China can only artificially peg their money to the dollar for so long, until they run out of dollars, and they are drawing down their reserves at a reco…

I'm standing at my desk in my apartment that I pay $1589/month for. An equivalent apartment in SF or NYC would be $3500 or higher. The problems are two-fold. 1) Vancouver hasn't created a single-family detached home lot since the 1970s. There is an ocean to the west, the US border to the south, Burrard Inlet and mountains to the north. There just isn't any land. The only way to expand is east into the Fraser Valley.…

If property values were tied directly to incomes, as they are in any normal market, and what you are saying is true about salaries being low, the Vancouver market would not be as hot as it is right now.

The market is being artificially inflated by foreign buyers. Don't forget that Vancouver is a very attractive destination for wealthy Chinese multi-nationals. This is the same phenomenon that has wealthy Chinese buying $5 million luxury apartments in Manhattan through shell companies to hide their identity.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#197

Post by pakled_engineer »

sospep wrote: post #175
mathattack wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article real estate costs in Vancouver are half that of San Francisco. Are salaries half too?

> The price of a typical Vancouver home rose 21 percent to C$775,300 ($584,290) in January from a year earlier, according to the city’s real estate board. The costs quoted in the article are a bit vague. If one were to assume that by "Vancouver home", she was referring to a "house" located within the city of Vancouver, you would be in for a rude awakening. Average house price is pushing 2M and what that will buy you…

Problem is those $700k condos are being bid up to $800k, and often sold so fast there's no time to go back to your bank and request an additional $100k mortgage. The Chinese buyers have cash to make the sale immediately.

The newer buildings are now exclusively luxury condos, like the tower being built on Harwood St that's one unit per floor for offshore millionaires.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#198

Post by restalis »

wingsonfire wrote: post #68
lewisl9029 wrote: post #12

As someone who's lived in Vancouver for more than 10 years, then went to Waterloo for school (and lived in Toronto for most of my co-ops/internships), I think we Canadians should be more worried about highly educated millennials fleeing Canada entirely. Everybody I know from school who were offered the option to work in the US have picked up their Canadian degrees and left. To the Canadian tech industry: How are you…

Exactly same issue with India. India has tons of IT Company and Government invests a lot in education.. obviously pay is more in US but I think it is also environment. That makes me wonder what has US done right to remain talent magnet

"what has US done right to remain talent magnet"

It sells itself better. Given the same conditions, an US offer will sound better because the benefits (the pay) will be highlighted while the drawbacks will be presented in a lesser manner or even hidden from view entirely. This is more so when it's about foreigners for which the discrepancy of what's currently available to them and what can be promised is simply staggering. Here is less about the job offers in themselves as means to cover needs as it is with them as advertised goods that generate tremendous amounts of attraction. That's why so many foreign talented individuals are jumping through hops and work on mediocre conditions (which includes the payment) just to be able to dream about the advertised big rewards. I say "to dream" because it works like a lottery, it's a rat race not for a piece of cheese but for a chance to that piece.

There is a lot to talked about on this subject, but it's suffice to say that at its root the difference comes from what is a fair trade, which differs greatly from USA in comparison to other places.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#199

Post by sospep »

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #42
lewisl9029 wrote: post #12

As someone who's lived in Vancouver for more than 10 years, then went to Waterloo for school (and lived in Toronto for most of my co-ops/internships), I think we Canadians should be more worried about highly educated millennials fleeing Canada entirely. Everybody I know from school who were offered the option to work in the US have picked up their Canadian degrees and left. To the Canadian tech industry: How are you…

Is the question that Canadian companies genuinely can't pay more, or just that they won't, for whatever reason?

Why would they pay more?

As long as they can fill the seats they have open, paying "Canadian" rates, why not?

Sure, they are aware that some talent is leaving for greener pastures southward, but there is no "shortage" of talent available in the Vancouver market.

When/if enough of the developer supply has exited, that filling those seats becomes difficult, salaries will increase.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#200

Post by illumin8 »

dghughes wrote: post #195
illumin8 wrote: post #180

This seems to be a direct result of capital flight from China. Wealthy chinese who are able to get their money out (through corruption, money laundering, or otherwise) are looking for somewhere safe to park their money for the inevitable decline in value of the yuan. China can only artificially peg their money to the dollar for so long, until they run out of dollars, and they are drawing down their reserves at a reco…

> This seems to be a direct result of capital flight from China. It's even happening to tiny PEI in the east we have seen a massive surge of Chinese people (to clarify yes from China) investing in and living in the province. Five years ago you could walk down the street and it was typical small town Canada last summer I went to a Starbucks and every single person was Chinese. There are now at least two if not three B…

I wouldn't even say it's speculative condo buying - it's more like treating the condo as a piggy bank. It's considered a safer investment because it can be purchased through a shell company (LLC), hiding the true identity of the buyer, and unlike the funds in a bank account, can't easily be seized.

There was a well known phenomenon: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/business/international/chi...

"In London, Chinese investors are purchasing high-end apartments in wealthy neighborhoods and big skyscrapers in the financial district. In Canada, they are paying $1 million for modest Vancouver bungalows. In Australia, a Chinese sovereign wealth fund bought nine office towers, one of the biggest real estate transactions in that nation’s history."

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