Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities • Hacker News Board

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#131

Post by mywittyname » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:09 PM UTC

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #98

kspaans wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe that Canadians are willing to work for less? (I remember reading an article that auto manufacturers charge more for the same cars in Canada simply because Canadians will pay more.)

Good point. Perhaps Americans are better negotiators, and haggling over price/salary "isn't done" in Canada (I know nothing about Canadian culture, but fascinated about the possible effects of culture on an economy).

This isn't done in America very much either. We have a white list of things that are appropriate to haggle price on (cars, houses, things on craigslist), but everything else is basically, "wait for sales."

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#132

Post by Serow225 » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:12 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #51

lewisl9029 wrote: post #12

As someone who's lived in Vancouver for more than 10 years, then went to Waterloo for school (and lived in Toronto for most of my co-ops/internships), I think we Canadians should be more worried about highly educated millennials fleeing Canada entirely. Everybody I know from school who were offered the option to work in the US have picked up their Canadian degrees and left. To the Canadian tech industry: How are you…

According to the article real estate costs in Vancouver are half that of San Francisco. Are salaries half too?

That estimate of real-estate/rent cost for Vancouver seems low to me.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#133

Post by mtviewdave » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:13 PM UTC

branchless wrote: post #66

raverbashing wrote: post #23

The Chinese are parking their money there, that's what's happening Hence people paying millions of dollars for a house that's falling apart But I'm glad to hear about Victoria.

HAM is not the only reason. Canadian banks are lending insane amounts. People always say Canada's banks are "sound". Every bank is sound until land prices go into reverse.

>Every bank is sound until land prices go into reverse.

Generalize that to building prices, and if true, that's going to make it very difficult to use construction to lower housing prices. Banks aren't going to lend for construction if they think making loans is going to threaten the bank's own soundness.

Or to put it another way, if falling housing prices add unacceptable risk to construction loans, then the banks efforts to mitigate that risk might include not lending if housing prices are in decline. Which means you could sweep away all zoning and NIMBY impediments, and you still wouldn't be able to use construction as a way to lower housing costs, because the banks wouldn't let that happen.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#134

Post by pwm » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:14 PM UTC

fiftyacorn wrote: post #46

peanut_merchant wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a similar problem in Scotland, I know a lot of people would love to have continued living in Scotland but can make >2 times the salary as a developer by making the move down to London. The cost of living in London is higher, but the increase in pay more than makes up for this. Granted, this is a move within the UK so it's not really a drain on the UK's economy but it leads to a more London-centric economy and…

Londons great when you are young, but in my experience people eventually leave when they realise they cant afford property even though they are well paid. Plus they realise quality of life is important too, and that the work centric culture in London isnt for them

I'm in the camp who moved out to the green belt but commute to the city. Best move ever :)

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#135

Post by bpyne » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:18 PM UTC

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #90

mikekchar wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's really crazy is that salaries in London aren't that high (unless you are in the financial sector). I am constantly astonished by the low salaries (for qualified programmers) offered in most parts of Britain. I suspect that you could actually get away with building a consulting firm in the country side and getting companies to offshore work from the US.

In the UK you get ahead by going into management. Tech (or sales, or accounting, or whatever) is just a short term thing you do for a few years until you get promoted into management. We don't like to reward people for being clever; we like to reward people who tell others what to do.

It's really difficult to generalize the situation in the US due to the size and diversity, in terms of industry and business scales, of the country. In general, I would say that you hit a ceiling in career development within 10 years on a technical track. (Of course, there are exceptions in industry sectors and a small number of geographic locations. But, I'm looking at the aggregate.)

However, management is no panacea. The pay is higher, but you can easily be stuck in mid-level management limbo with no say on budget or technical direction. Of course, you are "empowered" (read the remainder of the sentence with an abundance of sarcasm) to do reviews, deal with resource allocation issues for projects, operations, support work, and not to mention the coveted verification that your team does mandatory training on sexual harassment and the like. My manager is a prime example. He sits in many meetings. Ostensibly, he has a voice at the table with the "big wigs". In reality, he controls nothing and has the boring administrivia to handle. Mid-level management is also the first layer to be cut in a down-sizing.

If you stay on the technical track past 10 years, it really has to be because you love the ability to create something and see it used. I've been on the technical side for 25 years. Much of my job I find boring and intellectually vacuous. But, the times when I can actually create something still thrill me like the first time I wrote a program and saw it run.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#136

Post by ovis » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:21 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #102

imaginenore wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people here make way above average, and that's when differences increase dramatically. In the US I make close to $300k. In Europe, and London in particular, I get offered under 80k EUR.

"Most people make way above average"?

The GP claims most people on HN, which seems likely.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#137

Post by branchless » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:26 PM UTC

bpyne wrote: post #135

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK you get ahead by going into management. Tech (or sales, or accounting, or whatever) is just a short term thing you do for a few years until you get promoted into management. We don't like to reward people for being clever; we like to reward people who tell others what to do.

It's really difficult to generalize the situation in the US due to the size and diversity, in terms of industry and business scales, of the country. In general, I would say that you hit a ceiling in career development within 10 years on a technical track. (Of course, there are exceptions in industry sectors and a small number of geographic locations. But, I'm looking at the aggregate.) However, management is no panac…

Also IMHO management is risky because you become specialised to your companies systems.

One downsizing later you find yourself with 10 years of experience in working around limitations in the stationary ordering system at NowBustCompany. Welcome to the scrap heap.

By contrast in IT you can stay fresh more easily and be in demand should you need to move on.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#138

Post by branchless » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:28 PM UTC

pwm wrote: post #125

kspaans wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contracting rates != salaried rates. You have to charge more because you don't get any benefits (vacation, sick leave, pension), and have little job security.

Re job security - In reality as long as you produce value it is just as secure as a perm job. Also, psychologically I think it is more "secure", ie. there are no surprises. Companies hire you for a reasonably well defined task and term, hence you are fully aware how much you will earn during this period as well as when you will have to find your next gig.

This is changing. The other week every LN contractor at my company was told they are getting a pay cut.

Contractors have also been first to be let go. The last 10 years, yes. The next 10, not so sure.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#139

Post by JPKab » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:29 PM UTC

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #114

mattlutze wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works similarly in Germany and other economies with strong social support systems as well, it seems. You're doing really well to break 65,000ish Eur as a developer, but get on the management track and the sky opens up.

Why would "strong social support systems" be connected to this?

I have a suspicion how this works:

As an American, when I was early in my career, and had a baby and wife to support, being underpaid was super painful. Medical care, for instance, was expensive. Being able to be easily and quickly fired without a typical European justification process is another factor. You can find yourself unemployed at any time, with any justification.

It all lit a fire under me to demand better pay. In fact, I got very used to doing so, and also got very comfortable with the idea of doing whatever it took to turn myself into a sought-after commodity, with a goal of being able to find a new job as fast as possible "just in case" things went south quickly. I quickly learned to recognize companies where technologists are treated as a cost center. These companies, if they are indeed technology focused businesses, are going to inevitably have terrible products, mediocre employees due to the dead-sea effect, and awful work environments.

I wonder if a strong social support system would have never incentivized me to get comfortable negotiating, to invest in myself as a valuable piece of human capital in a very cutthroat, competitive market. Who knows?

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#140

Post by mabbo » Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 2:30 PM UTC

coroutines wrote: post #101

mabbo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some do leave, yes. Many come back home later. Amazon opened the Toronto office back in 2011 because there was demand- Canadians who didn't want to live in America anymore- often because of family, friends back home or because they wanted to have kids and not raise them as Americans, culturally. It started with less than 10 people, plus the hiring they were able to do locally. It's now an office of over 300 people, m…

Respectfully, I would not consider Amazon a champion of good working conditions. :>

Then I would guess you haven't worked as a developer at Amazon. I can talk for hours on what I like and don't like about the culture here, but suffice to say the benefits far outweigh any downsides to me.

Or, you can look instead at Google Waterloo, which is a similar-sized office just an hour away from here. Same pattern.