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Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

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Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#111

Post by VLM »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #32
lewisl9029 wrote: post #12

As someone who's lived in Vancouver for more than 10 years, then went to Waterloo for school (and lived in Toronto for most of my co-ops/internships), I think we Canadians should be more worried about highly educated millennials fleeing Canada entirely. Everybody I know from school who were offered the option to work in the US have picked up their Canadian degrees and left. To the Canadian tech industry: How are you…

It's not that Canada or anywhere else in the world has humiliatingly low salaries, it's just that the USA has such strong regulations on skilled immigration, that the wages for developers are artificially inflated. Most other countries, when faced with a shortage of workers in an industry, prioritise them over everyone else. In New Zealand, you need a certain amount of points to immigrate, and being in a high demand…

"the wages for developers are artificially inflated"

The wages are reasonable given extremely strict "culture fit" requirements. Must be male, must be white, must be under 30 with precisely 1-3 years experience never more or less, must be an ivy grad or close equiv, must perform well in hazing rituals like the whiteboard interview, must tolerate sweatshop working conditions, etc etc etc.

I mean, if you want to hire developers, the USA currently has way too many. Regardless, if you require incredibly narrow "culture" criteria, then there is going to be a massive shortage and opening the floodgates will be useless.

Seriously, does anyone think a bro-filled startup would hire, for example, a middle aged black woman immigrated from Senegal with 6 years experience and a non-ivy degree? "Oh I'm sorry, you're overqualified". "I don't think you'd be a culture fit".

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#112

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

tallanvor wrote: post #47

I see this as a problem all over the world. - San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Vancouver, London, Oslo... Really the list could go on for quite a while. So many of these cities feel like they have to retain their "identity" or the "feel" of the town, so they set restrictions that make it very hard to develop properties that can hold more people. The result is always the same: continually increasing prices in the cen…

There was an article a couple of months ago, shared all around urbanist social media, lamenting that rental prices in Seattle were declining because of an increased supply of housing (it was in one of those ubiquitous business insider journal type magazines). For a variety of reasons, it can be hard to increase supply, but that's the best way (barring a recession) to lower the cost of housing.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#113

Post by mattlutze »

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #90
mikekchar wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's really crazy is that salaries in London aren't that high (unless you are in the financial sector). I am constantly astonished by the low salaries (for qualified programmers) offered in most parts of Britain. I suspect that you could actually get away with building a consulting firm in the country side and getting companies to offshore work from the US.

In the UK you get ahead by going into management. Tech (or sales, or accounting, or whatever) is just a short term thing you do for a few years until you get promoted into management. We don't like to reward people for being clever; we like to reward people who tell others what to do.

It works similarly in Germany and other economies with strong social support systems as well, it seems. You're doing really well to break 65,000ish Eur as a developer, but get on the management track and the sky opens up.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#114

Post by zeemonkee3 »

mattlutze wrote: post #113
zeemonkee3 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK you get ahead by going into management. Tech (or sales, or accounting, or whatever) is just a short term thing you do for a few years until you get promoted into management. We don't like to reward people for being clever; we like to reward people who tell others what to do.

It works similarly in Germany and other economies with strong social support systems as well, it seems. You're doing really well to break 65,000ish Eur as a developer, but get on the management track and the sky opens up.

Why would "strong social support systems" be connected to this?

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#115

Post by [deleted] »

cmdkeen wrote: post #105
peanut_merchant wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a similar problem in Scotland, I know a lot of people would love to have continued living in Scotland but can make >2 times the salary as a developer by making the move down to London. The cost of living in London is higher, but the increase in pay more than makes up for this. Granted, this is a move within the UK so it's not really a drain on the UK's economy but it leads to a more London-centric economy and…

Odd - I'm ~6 years out of a Scottish university with a CS degree. Everyone of my class who stayed in Scotland owns their own property and has a much higher disposable income than those in London. They're in Edinburgh mind you, why anyone would choose to live in Glasgow is beyond me... Edinburgh recently topped the stakes for average disposable income in the UK - £800 per month compared to £300 in London.

[deleted]

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#116

Post by tacoman »

JackPoach wrote: post #16

Yep, Canadian tech salaries can't compete with Silicon Valley

I work for a boring company in Canada that requires significant IT skill and experience. The salaries at this company are decent. In the last ~6 years, I've lost coworkers to Cisco (2 people), Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Yelp.

They're leaving for the experience of working for those companies, not the money.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#117

Post by eitally »

tostitos1979 wrote: post #8
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their salaries are much higher than Vancouver, they might be ok....especially in tech.

Canadian tech salaries are a pittance compared to US ones. In the Bay area, 150K to 250K are standard for people with 5 years of experience. This is not the case in any Canadian city. This neglects the lower exchange rate.

You're way off. 150k for 5yrs experience is pretty typical in big tech & unicorn companies, but not anywhere else. 250k base salaries are highly atypical anywhere (except for very senior engineers). Total comp will be more than that, but if that's what you meant you shouldn't have said salaries.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#118

Post by tinduck »

I'll be honest. It's hard for me to hate on Vancouver too much as I truly think Urban planning is difficult.

I think people should move to lower costs cities if the situation makes sense for them. Vancouver might be at a disadvantage due to Brain Drain at this specific moment in time, but I believe there's an argument to be made that Vancouver has significantly been a beneficiary of Brain Drain from other countries in the past.

As the USA and Canada continues to transition to a knowledge based economy, our cities should emulate what made Vancouver a economic powerhouse, which is a world class research university, great public transportation, and effective immigration programs. Now, there are things you can't emulate like great weather or prestige, but we can make more cities like San Francisco or Vancouver.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#119

Post by gavingmiller »

anuj_nm wrote: post #40

In the past year, I've had 3 colleagues quit their jobs at a Vancouver startup to work remotely for a US company (to get paid in USD). Tech salaries in Vancouver are too low for the cost of living. Its especially discouraging to see an employer with offices in Seattle and Vancouver offer their Canadian employees salaries that are >30% lower than their American counterparts. I won't be surprised if Canadians working r…

I'd agree 100% on this. As a Canadian, looking at our future career prospects it is in our best interest to learn how to work well as remote employees.

Re: Millennials Flee Vancouver for More Affordable Cities

#120

Post by jdpigeon »

huhtenberg wrote: post #25
voltagex_ wrote: post #3

I really like Victoria and I hope the town does well out of this. I'm sad that I may not be able to afford to live in Vancouver anytime soon, though.

Victoria is nice, but it is a small city and being on the island it's pretty isolated. While you do have direct access to the said island, there's a limit to how much "nature" activities one can do. Diversity Nanaimo (another city) is utterly unremarkable. Tofino is very nice, but it's 4-hour drive away. Everything else is even farther and unremarkable. Getting to anywhere outside of the island is a major hassle. Vic…

Strathcona Park has some of the most remarkable backcountry skiing and ice climbing in the world, I'd say.
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