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Why do we work so hard?

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Re: Why do we work so hard?

#191

Post by dikdik »

Tempest1981 wrote: post #17

Some people thrive on "solving puzzles", which is sort of what engineering is. For better or worse, there are an infinite number of puzzles to solve.

I've been having a lot of frustrating conversations with my father the last several months around these issues. He is far from an intellectual and holds the 'protestant work ethic' in high regard. He is retiring in the next few months and work to him has always been this crappy thing he does every day to allow him do the things he loves (gardening, farming, camping, construction projects on his property).

I have never looked at work that way and I even quit my last job partially due to moral qualms I had helping a company I didn't believe in. He seems to think all I want is money, but that is the third priority for me following challenging work and contributing to a company that makes the world better. My father has never been all about money, but he never would have gone to work for anything but money.

He was even offered to interview for his boss's boss's job last year (C-suite in a conglomerate), but turned them down because he was over the rat race. Anecdotally, they told him they would 'overlook his lack of an MBA since he had 30+ years of experience' to which he replied 'that's good, since I don't even have an undergraduate degree.' So I suppose it's never been about money, so much as what the money enables him to do outside of work.

He continues to urge me to take a job, any job and just be happy with what any manager does to me as long as I get a paycheck. He was baffled when I quit a decent job to be unemployed. I can see his points and I often wonder if I am doing it wrong. He purchased a home in his late 20's after getting married, had 5 kids, very involved with his church, and has always had personal projects he spent his weekends working on. Even if I didn't go to college, those things would still be out of reach for me.

I wonder if my generation has just been instilled with different values or have we just been prevented from having the fruits of our values (homes, kids, etc)? Are we (I) just trying to fill the void because the truly wonderful things in life are more out of reach than they were for the Boomers? I really wonder how my father would fare if he was born in the same generation as me.

Re: Why do we work so hard?

#192

Post by askafriend »

buf wrote: post #18
Tempest1981 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is "looking at houses in Denver" depressing?

To me, it represents a slower pace of life. EDIT: trust me, I'm not bored.

You might be thinking about it the wrong way. It might be a slower pace of work, but certainly not a slower pace of life as that will always be what you make it. I think the problem here is what you've defined as life.

Re: Why do we work so hard?

#193

Post by askafriend »

driverdan wrote: post #146
buf wrote: post #7

I moved to SF in 2008 as a poor college grad. Since then, I've spent all of my time in startups. It's an unhealthy addiction and it's going to kill me. I was the third engineer at Eventbrite, and I spent years working many extra hours. After 4 years, it felt like I worked 10 years. I quit and moved to Europe to try to leave the startup scene, but a month later, I found myself the CTO of a startup in London. The addic…

Here's a crazy idea: stop overworking. Being a CTO doesn't mean you have to work long hours.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that he has a responsibility as a CTO to maintain a clear, balanced head to delegate and make decisions and working long, hard hours is the antithesis to that.

Re: Why do we work so hard?

#194

Post by reledi »

itsAllTrue wrote: post #5

The only reason I work hard is to surround myself with people I respect. When I find myself pushed into situations where irritating people have crept into the mix, and no one seems to be willing or able to do anything about that, I look for an exit. Boss' nephews. Obnoxious assholes who constantly talk about getting laid. Bitchy careerist ladies who constantly demand bullshit, and seem to foment panic with every brea…

You should have posted your comment after the second paragraph.

Re: Why do we work so hard?

#195

Post by reledi »

cesarbs wrote: post #77
Tempest1981 wrote: post #17

Some people thrive on "solving puzzles", which is sort of what engineering is. For better or worse, there are an infinite number of puzzles to solve.

The troubling thing, at least for me, is that as I get older I realize that most puzzles one encounters as a software engineer are related to non-problems. When I was fresh out of college I would jump at any such puzzle that was presented to me and would not sleep until I had solved it. I never stopped to think about the larger picture where that puzzle was embedded in, and if it actually required solving or if a mor…

Every line of code added needs to be maintained and makes adding future code more difficult. As our job is to build software, we are too eager to increase technical debt without knowing it. Always ask "how can we avoid building it?"

When you realize it really does need to be built and it is the highest priority, think about how it can be built while keeping cruft down. You can still be fast while keeping the codebase clean but it requires constant refactoring and review and a common understanding between team members.

Re: Why do we work so hard?

#196

Post by codeisawesome »

mdpopescu wrote: post #185
adrusi wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that they're definition of "doing better" isn't necessarily the same as yours. Maybe their idea of a good job isn't one that pays well and allows a flexible schedule, it's one that's low stress: they show up, go through the straightforward motions that they do every day, and go home. If they're interested in something intellectually stimulating, they prefer to do it on their own time, without the risk of…

Yeah... it's not that they like their current job (the people I talk to mostly don't). It's that they seem to have this fixation with "it's too difficult"... my brother helps drug addict teenagers and he thinks programming is too difficult! It's driving me nuts.

The mystique of "impossible" difficulty is a curious phenomenon of human thought.

I am a programmer and I love to code. I definitely think creating Stock Market trading algorithms is difficult. In the absence of conscious exertion of the will to have faith in myself, I can easily slip down the slope of believing it to be impossible. Perhaps, "it's impossible" is used as a shorthand by people to state "it's impossible for me to expend the energy learning to do that".

Perhaps what your brother is really trying to say is: "I think programming is going to take too much of my time and energy spent in acquiring the skill to do competently and professionally. This time and energy is better spent in analysing and helping heal the emotional landscapes of troubled young humans - because that is what appeals to my value system stronger. I wish you luck."

I believe this is actually more benign and respectable than the people who think they are rockstar coders but commit toxic-waste laden mud into git repositories sometimes :-) Much respect to your brother and everyone else who follows their passion instead of what popular opinion or the media tells them is the "best thing" to do.

Re: Why do we work so hard?

#197

Post by codeisawesome »

itsAllTrue wrote: post #5

The only reason I work hard is to surround myself with people I respect. When I find myself pushed into situations where irritating people have crept into the mix, and no one seems to be willing or able to do anything about that, I look for an exit. Boss' nephews. Obnoxious assholes who constantly talk about getting laid. Bitchy careerist ladies who constantly demand bullshit, and seem to foment panic with every brea…

All entities are broken. Make your peace with that. Don't be angry when people are awful or things/systems don't work. Be pleasantly surprised when anything works.

I'm not preaching universal love. I'm advocating pruned expectations.

Re: Why do we work so hard?

#198

Post by codeisawesome »

cesarbs wrote: post #77
Tempest1981 wrote: post #17

Some people thrive on "solving puzzles", which is sort of what engineering is. For better or worse, there are an infinite number of puzzles to solve.

The troubling thing, at least for me, is that as I get older I realize that most puzzles one encounters as a software engineer are related to non-problems. When I was fresh out of college I would jump at any such puzzle that was presented to me and would not sleep until I had solved it. I never stopped to think about the larger picture where that puzzle was embedded in, and if it actually required solving or if a mor…

Yes, I'm not old but I am easily distracted when I'm having to solve problems created by the imperfection of human minds and aren't part of "the universe", by nature.

Of course, as I type this, I come to the shaking realisation that Humans are also a component of the Universe. I need to reevaluate my emotions.

Re: Why do we work so hard?

#199

Post by 15155 »

buf wrote: post #18
Tempest1981 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is "looking at houses in Denver" depressing?

To me, it represents a slower pace of life. EDIT: trust me, I'm not bored.

Slower pace from where exactly? SFBA?

I couldn't disagree more, if that's indeed what you're saying.

NYC, yes. SF - absolutely not.

Re: Why do we work so hard?

#200

Post by cesarbs »

reledi wrote: post #195
cesarbs wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The troubling thing, at least for me, is that as I get older I realize that most puzzles one encounters as a software engineer are related to non-problems. When I was fresh out of college I would jump at any such puzzle that was presented to me and would not sleep until I had solved it. I never stopped to think about the larger picture where that puzzle was embedded in, and if it actually required solving or if a mor…

Every line of code added needs to be maintained and makes adding future code more difficult. As our job is to build software, we are too eager to increase technical debt without knowing it. Always ask "how can we avoid building it?" When you realize it really does need to be built and it is the highest priority, think about how it can be built while keeping cruft down. You can still be fast while keeping the codebase…

That's pretty much my personal approach to writing code (with special devotion to the "how can we avoid building it" part). I wish everyone I worked with had the same attitude.
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