On asking job candidates to code • Hacker News Board

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#251

Post by im_down_w_otp » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:59 PM UTC

vkjv wrote: post #241

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really, really easy to tell what contributions were made to a project by the person whose profile you're looking at. There's literally a "contributors" section where you can click on them and see every commit they ever made to that project. Also, asking someone to code in front of you is a terrible way to figure out what it would be like to work with them. 1) It's an artificial non-cooperative environment. 2) It…

I over simplified to make a simple bullet list. This is not a "code in front of my while I sit in silence" kind of thing. It's collaborative, it's discussing requirements, strategies, etc. It's back and forth and suggestions. It's also open Internet and questions are encouraged. FWIW, we follow-up on what candidates thought of the interview process and it is overwhelmingly positive. I don't think it is overly stressf…

Well, I'm not sure how you're correcting for bias in the feedback. For the same reasons you don't think it's possible for an interview to be not-stressful at all; you also can't get feedback about that process without the bias that they're not going to want to tell you that your process might be bad.

You'd more or less need to get feedback only from people who are already happily and gainfully employed who are also close to neutral on the 'agreeableness' spectrum.

At any rate. You can remove the stress from an interview mostly the same way a therapist can remove stress from iterative therapy. By building an ad-hoc environment of trust, safety, cooperation, and goal alignment.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#252

Post by hibikir » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 6:01 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #115

jasode wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (ie, work sample tests), I do not understand why any tech company does developer hiring in any other way. Because every method of hiring has its own biases and tradeoffs. Requiring work samples biases against programmers who aren't interested in doing a "homework assignment". For example, I don't enjoy whiteboard interviews but I'd rather write some fragments in front of the interviewer and "think out loud" instead…

The "no homework" thing is such a red herring. Companies that do work samples minimize on-site coding interviews , because the whole point of offsite work sample testing is that most candidates can't provide an accurate picture of their aptitude in an on-site coding interview. No interviewing software developer prefers an extra 6 hours of on-site interview to an off-site coding challenge. The problem developers have…

The sensible solution, which I have seen done very successfully before, is to add a 1/1.5hr hr on site/skype step, in which the candidate goes over the solution, and asks for a small feature. It both proves that the code was written by the candidate, shows some of the personal stuff the homework didn't, and makes it far easier for the candidate to perform well, because they are familiar with the code, as they wrote it!

It's not an expensive investment for what you get, and since the meeting should happen soon after the code is written, it's easy to provide basic feedback.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#253

Post by pyb » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 6:04 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #205

pyb wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they not only getting very desperate candidates ?

No. Everyone interviews this way. The very most marketable candidates leverage personal brand and connections to dodge a lot of it, but you have to be good at sales to do that.

Perhaps in the US, but here in the UK, in my experience, companies have shorter onsite interviews. (except for the American ones...)

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#254

Post by pyb » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 6:06 PM UTC

nobleach wrote: post #199

dominotw wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have like 3 projects with > 1000 stars and they are used in production by atleast couple of people. But, noone gives a shit about that they would rather have me reversing a binary tree on a whiteboard.

I remember reading that comment about Google... even though a ton of people at Google use Homebrew. The question is, what would would you be writing at Google? Would you be reversing binary trees? Would you need to instantly know which sorting algorithm would be most efficient at the drop of a hat? or would you be building more tools like you already have. The one thing that isn't immediately clear from your GitHub i…

"The one thing that isn't immediately clear from your GitHub is if YOU wrote the code and HOW you wrote the code." Spend a few minutes looking at the commit history and all shall be revealed...

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#255

Post by logfromblammo » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

innertracks wrote: post #214

logfromblammo wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. My after-work profile consists mainly of my non-driving kids getting to their non-school activities on time, the custom-built furniture in my living room, the lawn calibrated to give the HOA conniptions without actually breaking any covenants, the brake fluid level in my 2001 car that is definitely leaking it very slowly, my almost-completed low fantasy novel that I started for NaNoWriMo in 2012, DIY pajamas…

Seriously considering putting a write up of how I repiped the natural gas lines in our house. One inch pipe to the utility room, valves on all tees and a stub for the meter so I could pressure test the whole house by zones at the first tee after the meter. Systems, problem solving, engineering. Happens everywhere not just on a computer screen.

So what did the code inspector have to say about your DIY work?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#256

Post by pyb » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

vkjv wrote: post #220

dominotw wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed that your github profile doesn't even get looked at until you jump through all the standard phonescreen/homework hoops. Even after than many interviewers look at your resume like 10 minutes before the interview there is no chance that they would read through your code on github. github as your resume is overrated. I am curious to know if people hire or get hired purely based on their github profile witho…

A couple of quick notes: * If you don't provide a link to your github profile, I'm not supposed to look at it. This an HR requirement. Other companies may use this same policy. * I definitely look at github, but it's not always easy to tell if a project is original or not. Quite often I'm presented with either 30 forks, or a few projects that seem like they started as some boilerplate. * Don't just provide github, al…

"I'm not allowed to look at it." Uh? Is it a concern that you'd get too much information about a candidate?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#257

Post by pnathan » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

My main hope when talking with a recruiter person is that we avoid the kabuki theater. at this point: I'm good at some stuff, poor at others. My resume is an adequate description of things I am good at. I'd like to talk personality fit now, thanks.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#258

Post by kozukumi » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #227

Watch the recent coreos post/video, the CTO is probably a smart and nice guy but he looks about 16.

I would have said he looks more like a young-looking mid-20s, no idea how old he actually is, couldn't find anything in my 5 seconds Google search. Out of interest how old is he then?

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#259

Post by iolothebard » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

jcadam wrote: post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

I've had this happen multiple times. Why would you hire your own replacement? (This is how they think.)

When they have someone hiring not based on what's best for the company but what's best for their own career goals, you know you're going to have issues.

Welcome to the world of tailoring yourself for the job. I'm in my 40s, so it gets worse. Can't wait until I'm over 50!

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#260

Post by billmalarky » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

vkjv wrote: post #220

dominotw wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed that your github profile doesn't even get looked at until you jump through all the standard phonescreen/homework hoops. Even after than many interviewers look at your resume like 10 minutes before the interview there is no chance that they would read through your code on github. github as your resume is overrated. I am curious to know if people hire or get hired purely based on their github profile witho…

A couple of quick notes: * If you don't provide a link to your github profile, I'm not supposed to look at it. This an HR requirement. Other companies may use this same policy. * I definitely look at github, but it's not always easy to tell if a project is original or not. Quite often I'm presented with either 30 forks, or a few projects that seem like they started as some boilerplate. * Don't just provide github, al…

My issue with the whole "github resume" thing is all my best code is in private projects because they are related to serious side projects I intend to monetize. I suspect the same could be said for any other developer who is serious about their side projects.