Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do • Hacker News Board

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#351

Post by FireBeyond » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:01 PM UTC

adwf wrote: post #270

rsync wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yeah that's an excellent sketch. I think he really does touch on an important point, the only good reason to have guns is because they're fun. Self defense is nonsense and protection from government is even more nonsense nowadays." You're completely overlooking (dismissing ?) animal husbandry and predator control for livestock, etc. Depending on your location, a rifle (or three) is absolutely necessary to protect an…

Yeah, sorry. Work guns are the exception. They're the exception in the UK also. However, the vast majority of firearms sold are not for farming purposes. Agricultural jobs make up ~1% of the US workforce, yet there's over 1 gun per person. It's a bit of a red herring to talk about it though; no-one is advocating complete gun bans, but sensible gun control.

Similar in Australia, farmers are allowed to own rifles.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#352

Post by alistairSH » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

agarden wrote: post #335

agarden wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how being designed to kill changes the risk calculation. Cars are not designed to kill, but they are designed to do something that is inherently dangerous and potentially lethal. The fundamental thing is how much risk is posed, not whether the risk is incidental to the goal or intentional, right? ...I think you are suggesting that people consider the risk of cars acceptable because the risk/reward ratio…

I think I've put my finger on why it doesn't seem to explain things. Let's say guns were solely about entertainment, no other use. Alcohol is also solely about entertainment, so it should have a similar risk/reward ratio. And in the US, about the same number of people (~10k) die of DUIs every year as die of gun homocide (~10k). Yet alcohol does not raise the same fear and terror in the population as guns. The origina…

But guns aren't about entertainment. Or, at least not to a large portion of the population. Even among gun owners, many own out of a sense of fear, not because they enjoy visiting the range or plinking cans.

I think you're previous comment really sums it up. The risk/reward analysis just doesn't make sense to many people. To the extreme anti-gun population, the only possible outcome of owning a gun is somebody dies. And that is almost never warranted.

In many cases, it's the classic "This is why we can't have nice things." A few bad apples don't store their guns properly, causing some deaths, and it doesn't take long for the general population to shift towards an anti-gun stance.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#353

Post by giardini » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #350

giardini wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hurricane Katrina's Danziger Bridge shootings remind us of the most unpredictable and dangerous of predators, humans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danziger_Bridge_shootings BTW doesn't the UK have zoos, animal sanctuaries or wealthy residents who own predators? In the USA thousands of lions, tigers, cheetahs, cape buffalo and other non-native predator species reside in zoos, animal sanctuaries or even back yards. Su…

I think you win today's "I need guns for a ridiculously unlikely scenario" prize. There are zoos and suchlike, and there have even occasionally been escapes, which are usually recaptured with a tranquiliser dart gun.

Earthquake,

flood,

hurricane,

severe blizzard,

fire,

riots, political unrest, lynching,

epidemic disease,

while all unlikely, happen with regularity in the USA. We are lucky we don't need to deal with famine here, but in the rest of the world it is a real threat.

1. Do you know police shot and killed unarmed people at Danziger Bridge during Hurricane Katrina?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danziger_Bridge_shootings

2. Have you read how, during Katrina, the New Orleans police and federal agents disarmed people illegally, leaving them unprotected?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/us/nationalspecial/police-...

3. Google

police and national guard disarm citizens during katrina

and read about what happened - I dare you.

Don't you have armed police/military who, while a blessing in some instances, are in others a curse?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#354

Post by anu_gupta » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #288

skewart wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that the "curb government power" is a common argument for gun ownership in the US. However, I've never understood the logic behind it. Do people really think their handgun is going to help them resist a predator drone strike? The US military is vastly more powerful than any gun owner. Do people really think they can compete? What's more, advocates of legal gun ownership often also push for more mil…

That's why Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were a cakewalk - regular people with guns can't possibly resist predator drones and the like. What you are actually missing is that guns are part of (some American's) tribal culture. The move to ban guns is mainly, at this point in time, a front in the culture wars. (Historically it was also about disarming blacks in order to empower terrorists.) There are many cultural artif…

Wait. How many drones were there in Vietnam?

And I guess experienced combatants with surface to air missiles are "regular people with guns".

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#355

Post by mcherm » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

neonhomer wrote: post #61

I always hate these kind of articles. As a US citizen there's only rule when it comes to firearms and that's the 2nd Amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Until a new Amendment is passed to revoke this individual right, all arguments are invalid.

I completely disagree with you.

The 2nd Amendment forestalls many arguments about what the law IS. It does not forestall arguments about what the law SHOULD BE.

And it is important that we engage in a discussion about what the law ought to be. For instance, although courts do not (well, ought not) respond to public opinion, there is a public discussion going on now about the appropriateness of the government ordering Apple to rewrite their OS to allow the FBI to decrypt a phone. That discussion is healthy, and a good thing. As another example, I often engage with people in discussions of why freedom-of-expression (1st Amendment) is so important, and I am prepared to lay out the arguments for why it is a good law.

The 2nd Amendment ought to be treated the same way. Those who think it is good policy should be able, and willing, to lay out the reasons why it is a good law. And many of them do. I believe some of those reasons may be based on bad science (e.g. "It is good not to restrict gun ownership because greater gun ownership reduces crime."), and we can talk about that. Other gun rights supporters pass laws requiring that no federal money be spent on collecting data on gun-related risks (perhaps for fear that the results will not support their positions?). I object to that behavior, and I hope you would too.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#356

Post by anu_gupta » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #269

TallGuyShort wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, as I haven't been to Europe - were these at border posts? Public transit hubs? Anything else?

I've seen them walking around in train stations, airports, public squares and on the sidewalk. Remarkable from an American perspective.

I guess it's almost as remarkable as the number of people in the USA who actually get killed by police.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#357

Post by lliamander » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:29 PM UTC

trill1 wrote: post #146

dheera wrote: post #19

How exactly do we define "terrorist"? For example, why is the San Bernandino mass shooting NOT considered terrorism? Because more people were killed in that single incident than were shot by toddlers in all of 2015.

Wait, the San Bernandino shooting is constantly referred to as terrorism by the media and by politicians... When the perpetrator isn't Muslim though, the situation is different (e.g. Dylan Roof, Anders Brevik, James Holmes) and the same people instead are much more likely to frame the violence as a mental health issue.

terrorists and lone wackos may both engage in mass shootings, but their threat profiles are different[1].

The San Bernandino shooters fit the 'terrorist' threat profile; Dylan Roof, et al., fit the profile of 'lone wacko'.

[1]http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6943

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#358

Post by themartorana » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #103

pjc50 wrote: post #12

Since this is today's gun argument thread, I'll just point out that the UK is currently commemorating the 20th anniversary of its first and last "mass shooting" incident, at a school in Dunblane, Scotland. The ensuing total ban on handguns and further restriction on gun licensing mean that mass shootings are nonexistant, firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m), shooting of suspects…

>> police are not routinely armed I'm a gun owner and this is the key point for me. No politician is in a position to tell me I don't need my semi-automatic pistol if every day I see a patrol car go by my house with 2 fully automatic AR-15s locked between the front seats and my local police department owns an armoured vehicle. If you really think you have a plan for getting rid of guns for bad guys as well as me, pro…

Upvote upvote upvote.

The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was that the country was founded by taking up arms against tyranny, and the framers knew that the new government they were forming could just as easily lean towards tyranny.

Well, we're here. The police are no longer community organizations, rather they're full military units charged with waging war against the citizens they purport to protect.

Personally, I lean towards the side of always needing guns available, as a check. Quote nukes and F-16s all you like, civil uprisings are much more likely in a country where people are armed, no matter how poorly in comparison to the military.

That said, as I see tyranny increasing and police militarization increasing there is no part of me willing to now part with the rights I have left.

All that said, guns are not safe, they are for killing. The woman quoted in the article got lax in a place that requires constant vigilance (gun safety). One of the biggest problems with our gun culture is that the divide runs along the "don't take our guns!" line, and rational discussion, where we can admit the truth about the dangers ownership presents aren't heard.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#359

Post by FireBeyond » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

magicGLASSman wrote: post #294

AI_Overlord wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-Calls most Mexicans rapists ands stands by it -tweets a statistic that most white people are killed by black people, never apologizes, refuses to backtrack -pretends he has no idea who white extremist groups or the kkk are when asked point blank whether he will disavow their support ... The list goes on and on

I'm not defending trump, I just don't see a place for emotional "-ist" words based on very selective framing of someones speech. we need to talk about illegal immigration and criminal activity. We need to talk about Black on Black violence not just police violence. Why should he know David Duke is? and he disavowed 15 times. I love the push back, that is what america is about having debates about important issues, no…

"David Duke, former grand wizard of the KKK... would you disavow his support or that of his organization?" "I don't know who David Duke is, and as for any organization, well, I'd have to do further research before disavowing their support"

The next day "Oh, of course I would. It was a bad earpiece they gave me, I told them it wasn't working well."

Well enough that he heard the question just fine and was able to put together a coherent (if bad) answer. Nope, blame your earpiece. Some disavowal that was.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#360

Post by MagnumOpus » Tue, Mar 15, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

zeveb wrote: post #253

amelius wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess this amounts to a chicken-and-egg problem. In many European countries, police officers are only minimally armed (just a handgun, used only in rare circumstances).

> In many European countries, police officers are only minimally armed (just a handgun, used only in rare circumstances). And yet when I've been in Europe I've seen plenty of police and/or paramilitary units carrying submachine guns, something I never saw here in the U.S. even after 11 September.

At a guess, you saw them at the airport, the largest central rail station or the parliament building - which are just about the only places they carry automatic weapons. A tourist will visit all of these points, the average local - especially one that doesn't live in the capital - might go years without seeing one.