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Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

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Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#101

Post by rorykoehler »

kiba wrote: post #9

Sometime I wonder if the FBI and other security agencies lost perspectives or they know something that we don't. Time and time again, their argumentation are not particularly persuasive. I don't doubt the existence of terrorists, but it seems that they are more boogeymen rather than an actual threats. And when it came down to it, the power of terrorists is to inspire fear, rather than kill people. They can change us…

Standard power play. There always needs to be an enemy to fight against to keep the population inline. After the Soviet Union collapsed it left a vacuum so we had to invent terrorism as the new threat. IMO anyone who is scared of a couple of inbred bible/koran thumping terrorists isn't fit to lead a country.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#102

Post by Lawtonfogle »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #29
jacquesm wrote: post #2

> No, David. If I were in the job now, I would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them. They're not as interested in solving the problem as they are in getting a legal precedent. That's quite the quote, especially given his history of employment. The weirdest thing about this whole cell-phone saga to me is that the…

No the weirdest thing is that Apple is standing up to the government. Isn't that just wrong? You, the people choose the government, so in effect Apple is standing up to the people of America and saying 'no'. If you the people didn't want the FBI to be bullish then choose a different government. It feels to me (an outsider) that it's the government that is out of control and is not accountable to the people.

>You, the people choose the government

We do not. Simple as that.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#103

Post by ambicapter »

devishard wrote: post #70
nickik wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dont be so dramatic. You can have a phone and leave it at home if your gone do something where you don't want to get tracket. Thats just the most simple option. Its not a binary choice.

I don't want to be tracked when I go to work (or ever), but I have to bring my cell phone to work because I need it to do my job. So, yes it's a "choice": I can have my privacy or I can have my job.

Get a dumb phone for work.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#104

Post by Lawtonfogle »

Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

To answer his question, we don't. I am so sick of them using this as a justification for stripping away all rights that I'm ready to apply first amendment protections to all digital data to stop this Trojan horse.

Yes, there are bad people doing bad things. But we are enabling much worse people to do much worse things trying to stop the bad people (also, if you make it so the low handing fruit of people who only possess digital data can no longer be used to score political points and to give the appearance of helping, it could force law enforcement to dedicate even more resources to the producers, thus being a win for both freedom and for the innocents needing protection).

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#105

Post by arebop »

mixblast wrote: post #98
jccc wrote: post #82

Before you comment, please consider whether you'd prefer to vent your frustration in online message boards with like-minded people, or spend that potential energy in other ways: "What you can do about it: -- You can contact the Obama White House online to comment on strong encryption. https://www.whitehouse.gov/webform/share-your-thoughts-onstr... -- You can contact your state Senators and Representatives via the con…

And what about the rest of the world? Can we do anything other than just trusting the US citizens to get their government to do the right thing?

Make your own country less corrupt, more free, and better for the economically-worst-off, so that your own entrepreneurs may eventually overtake the authoritarian superpowers?

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#106

Post by Piskvorrr »

obvio171 wrote: post #96
Piskvorrr wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is such a great idea, because proper encryption is undistinguishable from random data: so, if you have a drive, any drive, good luck convincing anyone that it does not contain any encrypted content, and that whatever is in the empty sectors is just garbage. Guilty until proven innocent.

Enjoy your entropy while it lasts.[1] [1] https://www.google.com.br/search?q=appelbaum+right+to+be+ent...

This is not even about deniable encryption (which is apparently a part of the threat model?): this is a nightstick to beat anybody who's inconvenient in any minor way. "Prove to me that your song collection contains no secret message, else you're guilty." There's no way to do that! For anything I could come up with, the universal response "well maybe it's hidden even better" holds.

In other words, introducing "guilty until proven otherwise" introduces witch-trials pretty much by definition: if she floats, she's a witch (so far, so good; yay it works); if she drowns (or dies in notprisonnosirnotatall after years of not confessing nonexistent secrets), she was innocent. Of course, there is absolutely no way this might be abused, and certainly not for personal vengeance.

Welcome to Salem, MA.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#107

Post by clarkmoody »

The larger issue, by far, is whether we are a free people.

From the article:

  CLARKE: No, the point I'm trying to make is there are 
  limits. And what this is is a case where the federal 
  government, using a 1789 law, is trying to compel speech. 
  And courts have ruled in the past, appropriately, that 
  the government cannot compel speech. What the FBI and the 
  Justice Department are trying to do is to make code 
  writers at Apple - to make them write code that they do 
  not want to write that will make their systems less 
  secure.
If the FBI gets its way in this case, forcing Apple employees to perform a service for the government, then it sets the precedent for the government to compel anyone to do anything the government wants. When you are forced to work for someone against your will, this is called slavery.

Of course the FBI used a terrorist attack to try and get what it's always wanted, and it will abuse the unlock power in the future if it gets it now, but judges could easily cite this case as a defense for the government to compel other action from the people.

Clarke makes it sound like there is court precedent against this compulsion, but that would be overturned if the FBI wins.

Indeed, encryption and privacy are very important, but our very liberty is more important.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#108

Post by snowwrestler »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #29
jacquesm wrote: post #2

> No, David. If I were in the job now, I would have simply told the FBI to call Fort Meade, the headquarters of the National Security Agency, and NSA would have solved this problem for them. They're not as interested in solving the problem as they are in getting a legal precedent. That's quite the quote, especially given his history of employment. The weirdest thing about this whole cell-phone saga to me is that the…

No the weirdest thing is that Apple is standing up to the government. Isn't that just wrong? You, the people choose the government, so in effect Apple is standing up to the people of America and saying 'no'. If you the people didn't want the FBI to be bullish then choose a different government. It feels to me (an outsider) that it's the government that is out of control and is not accountable to the people.

The U.S. government is responsive to the people. But there's a lot of lag--decades in some cases.

The government is empowered to take action on behalf of the public. If it does something that people like, then great--keep doing it. If it does something that the public doesn't like, then there are multiple ways for the public to change how the government works.

What's happening right now is actually how it is supposed to work. Innovation results in new technology, the government tries what it thinks is best, and then there's a huge national public conversation about it.

This is the 2nd time we've had this particular conversation; the first was in the 1990s. And we'll keep on having it, basically forever. That's how government by the people works.

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#109

Post by tzs »

bsder wrote: post #19
Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

The moment you mention "child pornography" as justification I consider that you have lost the argument. This is simply Godwin's Law for the modern era.

In a society where most followed your approach, would there be any point in child pornography even being illegal?

Re: Encryption, Privacy Are Larger Issues Than Fighting Terrorism

#110

Post by CWuestefeld »

rogersmith wrote: post #86
Gratsby wrote: post #4

>PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: If, technologically, it is possible to make an impenetrable device or system where the encryption is so strong that there's no key - there's no door at all - then how do we apprehend the child pornographer? How do we solve or disrupt a terrorist plot? It's so disappointing to me to hear a quote like that from the President.

Disappointing with regards to the rest of his track records? re: Guantanamo, reining in Wall Street, cracking down on whistleblowers, widespread use of drones to perform extra-judicial assassination? If after 8 years you still think Obama is the Nobel peace prize wielding progressive philanthropist you've been fooled into thinking he is, joke's on you tbh.

While I agree with you, I also think this isn't the appropriate place for that discussion. I imagine that explains the downvotes you're getting.
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