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The web's original sin

quirksmode.org

31–40 of 132 posts

Re: The web's original sin

#31
Might be little off-topic, but here goes nuthing.

What is content, what is ad?

What is product, what is payment?

In not-so-distant future, the lines between those two would blur.

Whose 'fault' would be that outcome?

Big players will say, "Can't be helped, consumers want content without paying."

Small consumers will say, "Can't be helped, big players shove ads without giving product."

Wait, is this trend of content-morphing-into-ads a 'fault'?

Isn't it more likely it is a upcoming 'feature'?

Isn't it more likely it is the natural trends of things in the coming age where the private enterprises have swallowed the public space awhole?

Product is ads, content is ads.

Everything is ads.

Art is propaganda in 21th century style, perhaps?

The funny aspect of this trend is this,

Small people always pay.

First, you pay by providing your connectivity (Electricity, gadgets and so on)

Second, you pay by providing your credits (Fiat money by governing states)

Third, you pay by being surveiled.

Fourth, you pay be your attention.

Fifth, you pay by your time.

The emphasis seems to be on the second aspect of paying-the fiat money, while the greater dialogue is needed in the other FOUR aspects.

First, connectivity issue is already being conquered by big players; Google's baloons, drones, lasers, Facebook's 'Free' Basics

Third, the web is built in nature to be surveiled by powerful authority, whether that authority is legal(state) or technical(corporation) are irrelevant, as one submits to the other. Where the state is stronger, the corporation submits; where the corporation is stronger, the state submits.

Fourth, ADHD is not a disease or deviance. It is natural state of modern humanity, as humans are not evolved enough to be this much overwhelmed to consume what is being over-produced. Supply of attention-seeking-media is too much for even 8 billions.

Fifth, the only capital of proles are the time it has. As the labour is irrelevant by upcoming robot labour which never sleeps, tires, eats, shits nor complains about being not paid enough.

Now, this debate of 'adblocking war' is another misdirection by the big players.

You always pay, whether you block some 'ads' to see another 'ads'.

It matters little.

Little guys always pay.

Re: The web's original sin

#32
I recommend Jaron Lanier's "Who Owns the Future" for more on this subject; the takeaway is that an ecosystem that defaults to free is a recipe for the digital feudalism that now makes up most of the tech world, as only the largest companies can manage to derive enough revenue through selling data and eyeballs. (And "free" in this case includes low-margin paid services, such as Amazon and Uber.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Owns_the_Future%3F

The concept we're wrestling with comes down to Zero Marginal Cost: no one has to do any additional work when I view a web page or download a copy of a game. At first blush, it seems the first step to a post-scarcity world; instead, it creates a psychological barrier to buying, and a classic Tragedy of the Commons.

Re: The web's original sin

#33
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To read this content, please pay $0.01" Yeah. That wouldn't at all be abused.

You say that like the ad-supported model is abuse free, or like people would not adapt and develop mechanisms to avoid the abuse.

I remember discussing this back when Xanadu was first brought public.

The "hell" scenario is when every page is attempting to monetize content. Not only that, but adverts would charge you to read them, text could be split per word, firewalls would have to be erected for 'financial reasons', and obfuscated pricing that makes the app/IAP scam look like standard sales.

It would erect a paywall around almost everything. And that would be eminently sad, considering costs to access and use the net lower all the time. This would make many areas "rich people only" places.

Instead, we should be looking at systems that reduce costs to create and store. AT least for the second part, I'm looking at IPFS (ipfs.io) for the storage side of the problem. And it seems they've figured it out.

The "create" is still a problem, but it is a problem I think with distributed patronage could solve (payment before creation for established peoples with sufficient social proof, and payment after creation with those with insufficient social proof, and a social proof calculator that adds or subtracts depending on worthiness).

Re: The web's original sin

#34
post #29

I would love to have a thoughtful, Civ-like game on my phone. Its a Samsung Galaxy 5 with a 128gig micro-sd card. I know its powerful enough, but if its out there, I haven't found it. I, and many others, happily pay for such games on PC and gaming platforms, but on phones and Web, it seems oddly taboo. P.S. I'm not goving up my blockers on my computer browser. They aren't "ad" blockers; they're malware protection. To…

Battle for Wesnoth runs on phones iirc.

Yes, but only version that's any good is on IOS. all the android versions are sucky and outdated. If you want to make a good one, please do.

Re: The web's original sin

#35
post #28
post #12

When I open my mouth to talk to my neighbor, I am not producing "content" - I am communicating. The Web is a communication medium. The lack of commercial functionality baked in the communication medium is a feature not a bug. Whoever uses the word "content" betray his bias as a commercial publisher.

That seems like a bad analogy. The web wasn't built as a real-time one-to-one communications medium, it was built as a way to publish documents. Later on, enough stuff got added to the system to enable comment forms and chat boxes and whatnot, but the basis of the thing was always document publishing. Take a look at the original web site: http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html That's clearly a non-interact…

Didn't the original browser that was built at the same time as that site include editing tools that would work for any visitor? I.e. making it a many-to-many medium?

Re: The web's original sin

#36
To reuse the words of another HN reader on the same topic: I don't care.

I don't care that it costs you money to host your website, and I don't care if you stop publishing. Other sources just as good will pop up sooner or later.

You get the ability to spread your word to the entire world in exchange, instead of just a closed circle of friends, or anything. That's why it costs you money. Yes, a website will be a net loss for you. From there on, you can either accept this loss or find other ways to monetise it. Sell books, sell software, put ads (hint: I'll be blocking your ads, because I don't care about them either), anything.

Now I am definitely guilty of not paying for apps on phones, but that's because having seen how terrible 95% of mobile apps are, even if yours is in the top 5%, I just won't trust that my investment is good. For all I know your app could be a total piece of crap. Not that I actually use my phone much more than calling people, sending messages and browsing the internet anyways.

Re: The web's original sin

#37
post #12

When I open my mouth to talk to my neighbor, I am not producing "content" - I am communicating. The Web is a communication medium. The lack of commercial functionality baked in the communication medium is a feature not a bug. Whoever uses the word "content" betray his bias as a commercial publisher.

Have you ever spent any significant amount of time writing something, or making a video, or an image for the web?

Re: The web's original sin

#38
post #24

I don't understand. This article claims users feel entitled to free content on the internet and then goes into a rant about pricing and ad blockers while doing nothing to address the glaring fact that he himself thinks he's entitled to make money off of content. The internet is for the people. It is a free and open service for anyone to use. The only one entitled is the content creator who feels that they have a righ…

> The internet is for people, not for businesses.

This doesn't square with the fact that, at the end of the day, someone has to pay for hosting and bandwidth - not to mention that content creation costs time (money) as well. Ignoring these realities and pretending that the internet is free just externalizes the cost onto those who aren't savvy enough to use an ad blocker or avoid ransomeware.

Re: The web's original sin

#39
We all do things that we enjoy that may not make us money. We do them because we enjoy them.

The cardinal sin of the web is that it makes it really easy to take something that someone did for fun (and for free) and copy it for the benefit of people who might want it commercially. By doing this, you may be putting someone who makes a living selling the info you collect for free out of a job. This also means that if you do something for free, then start trying to charge for it, someone else is likely to start offering it for free and undercut you.

But we shouldn't stop people from sharing the results of their labors of love - it just means that the skill the professional had wasn't as valuable as they thought it was. At the same time, we should only do these things so long as we derive enjoyment from them, so if the author hates doing it, he should stop. He owes "the community" nothing.

Re: The web's original sin

#40
post #37
post #12

When I open my mouth to talk to my neighbor, I am not producing "content" - I am communicating. The Web is a communication medium. The lack of commercial functionality baked in the communication medium is a feature not a bug. Whoever uses the word "content" betray his bias as a commercial publisher.

Have you ever spent any significant amount of time writing something, or making a video, or an image for the web?

Yes. Most people who used the early web spent huge amounts of time making one or more of these. And posted them. Not just for free, but even on shared hosting plans they paid for. People paid money to share their "content" for free.

GOML

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