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Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

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Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#101

Post by eruditely »

fweespee_ch wrote: post #93
eruditely wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who doesn't believe in accurate diagnosis? I do. Their life failure rate is that much higher. The data is too strong and well corroborated. I'm providing data and you haven't. When it gets to last 2 years of high school meds matter, but what if they've repeated a grade already? That's not fair to them.

> Who doesn't believe in accurate diagnosis? I do. Then you shouldn't be pushing ADHD meds on 6-7 year olds. > I'm providing data and you haven't. When it gets to last 2 years of high school meds matter, but what if they've repeated a grade already? That's not fair to them. You are aware I was talking about 6-7 year olds based on what I wrote in the first comment I replied to, right? I'm not talking about high school…

They're still behind in effective brain development no matter what. When they're in high school, say 14 years old

14-4.2= 9.8, so they're 9.8 on avg in exec functioning. It isn't the same thing. But yes, wait a medium amount.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#102

Post by eruditely »

Spooky23 wrote: post #99
eruditely wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah right? Lack of rigor, people like you are the people who hurt me who have it. Here's your rigor for you buddy http://www.amazon.com/Attention-Deficit-Hyperactivity-Disord... I'm going to edit my comment with my studies copy paste that I prepare every time someone "doubts" ADHD. http://www.filedropper.com/russellabarkley-attention-deficit... Here's the entire epub buddy. Please edit your post, gosh. ""By adolesce…

Chill out. I didn't claim that ADHD doesn't exist. I asserted that there is a lack of diagnostic rigor in diagnostics and implied that the incentives are aligned to provide over diagnosis. We've moved to a model where "raising standards" in education and increased evaluation of teachers equates to formulaic, inflexible school curriculum that younger kids cannot handle. So they act out and get referred for evaluation.…

> Bullshit ADHD diagnosis are bad for people like you who are genuinely affected, as the resources available to help you end up getting shared and stretched to cover disciplinary and structural educational problems. A non-ADHD child isn't helped by ADHD prescription and unnecessary services, and an ADHD child isn't helped by not getting the attention he needs.

I'm interested in you developing the last thought you had.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#103

Post by Spooky23 »

eruditely wrote: post #102
Spooky23 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chill out. I didn't claim that ADHD doesn't exist. I asserted that there is a lack of diagnostic rigor in diagnostics and implied that the incentives are aligned to provide over diagnosis. We've moved to a model where "raising standards" in education and increased evaluation of teachers equates to formulaic, inflexible school curriculum that younger kids cannot handle. So they act out and get referred for evaluation.…

> Bullshit ADHD diagnosis are bad for people like you who are genuinely affected, as the resources available to help you end up getting shared and stretched to cover disciplinary and structural educational problems. A non-ADHD child isn't helped by ADHD prescription and unnecessary services, and an ADHD child isn't helped by not getting the attention he needs. I'm interested in you developing the last thought you had…

My dumb friend in the 90s scored a phoney diagnosis and got an expensive prescription and an expensive accommodation for free. He wasn't alone, and the insurance dollars consumed and "reasonable accommodations" obtained took away or raised the cost of things that you actually need.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#104

Post by jonesb6 »

_ywdj wrote: post #72
rtpg wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is off of the top of my head, but something like 50% of people treated for depression show positive response for the treatment, and 20% achieve "full recovery" (still on meds but the symptoms linked to depression are basically gone while on meds). Meaning these people can move on with their lives not having to deal with this. Medicated treatment for ADHD has hit even higher numbers. Something like 70% of patient…

I consider it one of the great paradoxes of modern thought that the loudest proponents of evolutionary theory are often the loudest proponents/defenders of pharmaceutical-based treatment for mental illness. So the logic is: - evolution is this amazingly powerful process that has resulted in the development of a vast diversity of astonishingly sophisticated and beautiful species of plants and animals, with the most ad…

This comment spawned a pretty good discussion thread. Yet people down voted it because they disagreed. This is not Reddit.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#105

Post by jonesb6 »

rtpg wrote: post #71
jonesb6 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait when did we get good at treating depression?

This is off of the top of my head, but something like 50% of people treated for depression show positive response for the treatment, and 20% achieve "full recovery" (still on meds but the symptoms linked to depression are basically gone while on meds). Meaning these people can move on with their lives not having to deal with this. Medicated treatment for ADHD has hit even higher numbers. Something like 70% of patient…

I earnestly wonder what percentage would've recovered with no medication.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#106

Post by cbhl »

intopieces wrote: post #69
Spooky23 wrote: post #21

It's a great illustration of the lack of rigor around this stuff. My college provided significant benefits to ADHD diagnosed students. Rather than take finals in stadium seating, you got a personal, air conditioned office, received unlimited time and could use reference material. A few of my friends found a "Do you need Ritalin" quizzes in a magazine, went to a doc-in-the-box and got the diagnosis. They sold the Rita…

Your description of your school's accommodations surprises me. I looked into the one for my school and it appears much stricter. Just having ADHD doesn't cut it -- a full write up is necessary. In other words, wouldn't be worth the hassle to fake it.

"A full write-up" is mostly to satisfy the bureaucracy.

At a high level, it contains: a label (the name of the condition you have), some proof (anecdotes demonstrating that you meet the criteria for the condition), and some recommendations (accommodations that the expert thinks are reasonable, such as a separate room or extra time).

When I was a kid, my psychiatrist got the anecdata from the parents. But write-ups are only valid for something like 5-10 years, so I had to get a second one when I got into college -- and for that, my school sent me to a local psychologist (non-doctor) to get an "updated" write-up. The psychologist did the write-up mostly with stories I retold during our meetings.

When I was in school, the accommodation I wanted was permission to leave the exam room early when I finished my exams. The accommodation that was written in my file was "write in a separate room" (which, in practice, meant that the special education staff who supervised me had the discretion to let me out early), and "30 min extra time for every 1 hr of exam time" (because this is the "normal" accommodation that justifies writing in a separate room).

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#107

Post by eruditely »

Spooky23 wrote: post #103
eruditely wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bullshit ADHD diagnosis are bad for people like you who are genuinely affected, as the resources available to help you end up getting shared and stretched to cover disciplinary and structural educational problems. A non-ADHD child isn't helped by ADHD prescription and unnecessary services, and an ADHD child isn't helped by not getting the attention he needs. I'm interested in you developing the last thought you had…

My dumb friend in the 90s scored a phoney diagnosis and got an expensive prescription and an expensive accommodation for free. He wasn't alone, and the insurance dollars consumed and "reasonable accommodations" obtained took away or raised the cost of things that you actually need.

?? Do you know how much has changed since the nineties? There's ecological EF deficit tests now(barkley's). Yeah like one guy getting an odd diagnosis is enough for you to continue your opinion.

This is just classical bayes rule dude, there will be a lot of false positives _no matter what_ unless the diagnosis rate is an absurdly high number. You're blaming other people for not knowing that's the way the numbers always come out?

https://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/30002.6.shtml

> Suppose that you are worried that you might have a rare disease. You decide to get tested, and suppose that the testing methods for this disease are correct 99 percent of the time (in other words, if you have the disease, it shows that you do with 99 percent probability, and if you don't have the disease, it shows that you do not with 99 percent probability). Suppose this disease is actually quite rare, occurring randomly in the general population in only one of every 10,000 people.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#108

Post by _ywdj »

_ywdj wrote: post #96
rtpg wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has dealt with ADHD both with and without medication, at least from my experience this line of reasoning leads to much pain. I cannot speak for those with depression, but ADHD has easily tripled the amount of stress I have in my life, if not more. It causes impulsive behaviour that can wreck relationships(both personal and professional), and makes it extremely hard to concentrate on many things that ar…

Hey there, I'm sorry to give the impression that I think you and those like you should suffer without treatment. I really don't. And I don't believe ADHD is a myth or anything like that. Quite the opposite. I just believe we can do better that what the medical profession currently offers. I mean, don't you think it would be a shame if we couldn't? Don't you think it would be great if we could come to fully understand…

I should add, in reference to this comment:

Countless studies have shown that medication is much much more effective than any form of behavioural therapy (and that BT has an extremely high failure/"relapse" rate).

Yes I can accept that. Behavioural therapies tend to be formalised ways of telling patients to "just try harder". They fail because the real issue is below the conscious mind (where "trying harder" works), in the subconscious mind and in the physiology (organ function, gene expression).

My personal experience is that there is a highly effective approach to treatment that works both on a physiological (all the way down to gene expression) level and a subconscious emotional level.

It may not be widely known or adopted yet, but it is attracting growing interest among ordinary people looking for better answers, if not mainstream science researchers, yet (due, I think, to the perverse economic incentives that prevail in that field, and the professional disincentives to pursue unconventional theories).

But from what I can see, it's just a matter of time.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#109

Post by fweespee_ch »

eruditely wrote: post #101
fweespee_ch wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who doesn't believe in accurate diagnosis? I do. Then you shouldn't be pushing ADHD meds on 6-7 year olds. > I'm providing data and you haven't. When it gets to last 2 years of high school meds matter, but what if they've repeated a grade already? That's not fair to them. You are aware I was talking about 6-7 year olds based on what I wrote in the first comment I replied to, right? I'm not talking about high school…

They're still behind in effective brain development no matter what. When they're in high school, say 14 years old 14-4.2= 9.8, so they're 9.8 on avg in exec functioning. It isn't the same thing. But yes, wait a medium amount.

> They're still behind in effective brain development no matter what.

The whole point of the article is they were "finding" 20-100% of the younger members of the same grade level had ADHD. ADHD shouldn't be detected at 20-100% higher rates at 6 instead of 7 at the same grade level if the process was working correctly.

That isn't okay. Period.

Maybe I take this a bit personally because I have a friend who had all 3 kids who were misdiagnosed at 7-8 and at 8-9 they were told they were "normal" and to stop medication.

ADHD doesn't magically cure itself in a year.

Re: Youngest Kids in Class at Higher Risk of ADHD Diagnosis

#110

Post by eruditely »

fweespee_ch wrote: post #109
eruditely wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're still behind in effective brain development no matter what. When they're in high school, say 14 years old 14-4.2= 9.8, so they're 9.8 on avg in exec functioning. It isn't the same thing. But yes, wait a medium amount.

> They're still behind in effective brain development no matter what. The whole point of the article is they were "finding" 20-100% of the younger members of the same grade level had ADHD. ADHD shouldn't be detected at 20-100% higher rates at 6 instead of 7 at the same grade level if the process was working correctly. That isn't okay. Period. Maybe I take this a bit personally because I have a friend who had all 3 ki…

Look at the extensive literature regarding children at this.

http://www.filedropper.com/russellabarkley-attention-deficit...

I don't care if you take it personally, you don't know math.

https://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/30002.6.shtml

> Suppose that you are worried that you might have a rare disease. You decide to get tested, and suppose that the testing methods for this disease are correct 99 percent of the time (in other words, if you have the disease, it shows that you do with 99 percent probability, and if you don't have the disease, it shows that you do not with 99 percent probability). Suppose this disease is actually quite rare, occurring randomly in the general population in only one of every 10,000 people.

No matter how accurate the test diagnosis is there will still be false positives. Please go away, it's stubborn people like you who never go away that make this disorder so hard to take seriously.

> Stimulants include both methylphenidate (MPH) and amphetamine (AMP) compounds. As a treatment for ADHD, the stimulants have decades of efficacy and safety data from hundreds of randomized controlled trials, beginning in the 1970s. Stimulant efficacy and safety data have expanded from an initial focus on school-age children with ADHD to encompass preschoolers, adolescents, and adults with ADHD. A more limited stimulant literature exists for females and ethnic minorities (Adler, 2009; Biederman & Spencer, 2008; Kratochvil, Greenhill, March, Burke, & Vaughan, 2004; Vaughan & Kratochvil, 2012).

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