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Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

jonathanmh.com

281–290 of 337 posts

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#281
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need people advocating for the right balance, not just getting each other frustrated. I don't understand this line of thinking regarding the big encryption debate. Yeah it sounds good if you don't know anything about encryption. "Look, he's being reasonable. Why is everyone saying he's wrong instead of striking a balance". The problem is it's a binary problem. There is zero way to strike any type of balance here…

I didn't think I'd come back but I liked your comment and wanted to rebut. There is a middle ground and where it lies is directly related to the assessed risk. To support a mechanism is a binary choice but its design is not. In the San Bernardino example, an unexpected potential adversary (Apple) has emerged. An unexpected vector is being discussed which has nothing to do with the encryption mechanism itself. Perfect…

> vendor supported key material attacks are not an unreasonable solution

Did you know encryption technology is not limited to Apple? It's not even limited to big companies. Anyone with a book or internet connection can implement encryption.

This isn't plutonium, which is hard to come by. Any law that puts a backdoor on phone's encryption schemes will fail to stop criminals from hiding their communications. They'll simply use another device or download a different app that does give them encrypted communications.

You and Obama are both correct to point out we should be seeking a balance to maintain our security. However, your calculation of that balance is missing some key elements, such as the one I mention above, which is that this is a gigantic game of whack-a-mole. It's the biggest one you could ever play. There's no way you can censor the internet or ban certain kinds of software. It's the same as censoring speech. Encryption is just code. The policy Obama is implicitly proposing simply won't work.

I can see you've thought about this so I'll give you one example where I think we should unlock a phone.

In the movie-like scenario where there's a nuclear weapon hidden somewhere, and an encrypted phone holds its location, then I would expect the NSA and FBI and every computer in the world to sick their processors on copies of that phone's data in an attempt to break the encryption. I believe this is already described as something the NSA has in place with a program called Bullrun. It seems likely to me that the FBI is unable to make use of this technology because decryption is so laborious, even for the mass of computers that the NSA has built up, and even for all of Google's machines. They just don't have enough to decrypt every criminal's phone. But I believe they could decrypt the movie-like scenario nuclear-weapons-hiding phone.

So we're covered in the most extreme case. But in reality there are all kinds of ways to discover someone's password, and you don't always need a huge server farm to get at it. For example, software has weaknesses that are only known to the NSA. No software is 100% impregnable. Even Snowden admits this.

We've existed as a society for a long time without encryption. Bad actors who collaborate exclusively online using encrypted technology, and who never meet in person, are few and far between.

Unless the US government has some major secrets to reveal about the balancing factors of maintaining public security, then on balance, trying to force backdoors into phones will make us all less secure. This forced weakness will be exploitable by every hacker in the world, at no cost, and from positions which are not governable. And the phone manufacturer will be required to keep that weakness as-is because to fix it would be to break the law.

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your message can basically be distilled into "it's absolutist but we can't let it come across that way to hurt our PR". I'm not sure trying to increase the complexity of the issue just to make it sound like the technology community doesn't see this as binary is a good solution. I think what we need to do is education people around how encryption works. If we're wishy-washy about the whole thing it may come off as som…

Not quite. Some people on this are absolutists, and some aren't. If we could create a safe back door, some would be in favor of doing that, and some wouldn't. That's distinct from us not having a way to create a safe back door. One problem I see us having (and I've seen this on Facebook) is that some people think that we are saying we can't create a safe back door because we don't want to. And I think they're getting…

> If we could create a safe back door, some would be in favor of doing that, and some wouldn't. That's distinct from us not having a way to create a safe back door.

I've seen a tiny handful of comments like that and other comments about how they're fine if it isn't completely safe in order to "protect the country". Is there any data to even know for sure what the majority of common people think about encryption and backdoors?

I'm not convinced a near majority simply thinks that SV just "doesn't want to". Well except in maybe the current Apple vs FBI case as the FBI and some of the media are kinda shouting that. Perhaps that'll sway the tides and make more people think in that way, however?

Either way I still think trying to educate the populous is the best way to undermine the entire idea of escrow keys / backdoors.

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm giving Bernie Sanders one last chance. But if he is elected and also reneges on his promises, I will probably stop caring about politics permanently. edit: Whoops! Shouldn't have revealed I'm a Bernie supporter. Forgot that HN is a libertarian paradise!

Forgot that HN is a libertarian paradise! It's funny, some threads you'd think everyone here was at least a socialist. Then in others you'd think everyone is one step short of declaring themselves sovereign citizens. I think the lizard people who run the site just flip a coin when each story is posted to decide which kind of comments it'll have.

There is such a thing as left-libertarianism, and I suspect that a lot of people here have at least one foot in that ideology even if they've never heard about it.

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This recent debate has quite literally centered on his administration using the San Bernardino shootings as leverage to force Apple to break iPhone's encryption. It's the main reason this whole discussion has the profile level it does.

He's asking to strike a balance in a court case. The tone, the actions, are so incredibly measured . Even though I disagree with them. And let's face it, iPhone encryption is weak encryption, with a single point of failure, the Apple signing key. In comparison, six weeks after 9/11 we got the entire PATRIOT act rammed through, and the current NSA domestic panopticon put into place illegally and in secret. And the adm…

The difference between Bush's (and Congress's) response to 9/11 and Obama's response to San Bernadino were as different in scale as 9/11 was to San Bernadino. The last time something happened that was a comparable scale to 9/11, the US responded by inventing, and then using, nuclear weapons.

Trump would make you pine for the days of George W. Bush. I think we took for granted the fact that Bush did things to smooth bigotry rather than incite it, like publicly declaring that Islam is a religion of peace and taking care to distinguish al-Qaeda from Islam in general. I think rather than pinning these things on the President we should take a look at the media, the rest of the government, and most importantly the public. Like it or not, the nationally televised murder-by-airliner of 3,000 people is going to incite panic, hatred, overreaction, and fear to a degree that not even the most resolute President can control.

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#285
post #86

A key promise of Obama's campaign for the presidency was to run the “most transparent” government- however the only person to really deliver on that promise was a whistleblower. Secret courts, secret domestic spying, and now calls for weakening of the digital equivalent of the safe shows that he either was not honest about transparency, or has radically changed his opinion since becoming POTUS. Maybe it's that he dec…

I think Washington has changed Obama more than Obama changed Washington. He's spent seven years in the craziest bubble in America surrounded by people being paid millions to distort his worldview one way or another. A while back he advised some kids in College to never type anything into a computer if they want it to remain private. For him, it probably seems completely reasonable. I doubt he's touched a keyboard sin…

I find your train of thought to be rather belittling and infantilizing of a man who, by all accounts, is quite brilliant (regardless of views on his politics, it's a commonly held position). Now, sure, people are affected by the circumstances in which they live, but you've framed it as though Obama has been hoodwinked by nefarious and persistent forces. Personally, I disagree with President Obama's crypto policies, but I don't assume that he came to his positions out of anything but a thoughtful reading of intelligence briefings and alike.

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#286
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communications are already being monitored by random government employees with no judicial review. The FISA court is already a rubber stamp. Encryption is one of the only ways to non-passively protest. Edit: Can't reply to my replies, likely because of the down votes on my parent's comment. Re: FISA, yes to both. That anecdote may be truth but I am still hung up on NSA employee looking up ex-girlfriends' emails the d…

I hear this a lot, what is the basis of considering the FISA court merely a rubber stamp? Is it the approval rate? Is it the lack of transparency? If it's the approval rate, in my experience the reason why court warrant approvals are so high is because intelligence / law enforcement are very risk adverse and will not submit requests that are likely to be rejected. Anecdotally, the officers I talked to considered it c…

Haven't you read about Snowden? All communications are recorded. All of them. Right now.

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#287
post #4

I think a lot of libertarians miss the fact that many of the communications monitoring aspects that the administration is proposing includes authorization by court order. It's not like your communications are being monitored by random government employees at will for no reason. There's a specific safeguard here for personal privacy, and that's through a court order. If government is monitoring your communications, th…

It is exactly like some communications are being monitored by random government employees at will for no legitimate reason: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOVEINT

Note that "most incidents are self reported" kinda sounds good, but really means "we don't have any good systems for finding it", and probably means many incidents are never discovered.

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#288
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Policy wise Obama is close to a Rockefeller Republican. What people say during elections is entirely disposable.

I'm giving Bernie Sanders one last chance. But if he is elected and also reneges on his promises, I will probably stop caring about politics permanently. edit: Whoops! Shouldn't have revealed I'm a Bernie supporter. Forgot that HN is a libertarian paradise!

Your comment is simply low quality. Threats of giving up are games for the immature to play

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think with respect to business regulation, encryption won't pose much of a problem. People in criminal prosecutions have a right not to incriminate themselves. But if the government wants to investigate, say, DuPont for chemical dumping and there's a law on the books saying companies have to keep chemical storage records for 7 years, DuPont can't just throw away the key for their encrypted internal data. They'll ha…

Thank you, I think this is a much clearer argument for how to proceed and how to address transparency required in business and satisfies some of my concerns. I think we may need additional regulations for the political class however. Government communications need to be secure, but I think being a politician abdicates some privacy rights, and IMHO, if you are an elected representative, you either must use some kind o…

Yes, that would be a lovely outcome. Everyone gets to keep normal functional encryption, but employees (especially Senators) have to provide a backdoor key to their employer to use it for work..

Re: Re: Obama on Fetishizing Our Phones

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually all of these sound like excellent gestures. Not playing to BS patriotism and phony sentiment by having his hands "together and below his belt"? Daring to say "my muslim faith" (haven't heard of that, so I kinda doubt it, but still). Bowing in respect to heads of other nations, instead of playing the "greatest nation on earth"? All of these all excellent. It's all the OTHER stuff that's bad about what he did.

Nearly universally in the US, hand over heart during the playing of the US National Anthem is a biggie. A lot of highly patriotic US citizens could get all wound up about that. Each of Hillary and Richardson put their hand over their heart. It's a free country, so you are welcome to your opinion, but what Obama did would be telling to a huge fraction of US citizens and, thus, some telling background for someone askin…

  "My Muslim faith": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8M
 
  Some people will look at that clip and conclude that Obama    
  just misspoke or was repeating something McCain didn't say 
  but might have, etc. 
I appreciate you posting that video. Watching, I feel that clearly the context is "John McCain himself hasn't said that I'm a Muslim but he insinuates it", and that he's just phrasing it as a counterfactual. I was interested enough to find a longer version of the interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMhB-CwF4yc) and it struck me the same way.

But clearly you and others read it differently. I'd guess that's because you are (proudly) Christian, and don't think a "true" Christian would ever say intentionally say the words "my Muslim faith" if there was any chance of misunderstanding? A sort of reverse-shibboleth, akin to testing whether someone is an undercover informant by asking them to do something clearly illegal?

My guess has always been that Obama, like many politicians, is less devoutly Christian than many of his followers want him to be, but I've never suspected that he actually considers himself Muslim. Instead, I'd guess that he harbors enough religious doubt that he feels guilty about claiming to be Christian, but feels compelled to overstate his religiousness for political reasons.

Is this the sort of conclusion you draw from the video, or do you see it as evidence that he is actually committed to Islam? What's the thought process behind your interpretation?

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