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How Education is Ruining Your Life

davetroy.com

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Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#21

Post by davetroy »

pbz wrote: post #20
jcromartie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think having people be transplanted away from their families and friends for a 4 year hiatus to focus on learning is a crucial part of becoming a well rounded person. If someone asked you how to educate a society and this was the answer you gave, they might think you were crazy.

There are other things you need to learn beside what's in books, like how to live on your own, be responsible for your actions and so forth. Living away from the nest can be helpful in learning these things. I don't understand why this would make you "crazy."

I am not suggesting that people shouldn't move out of their parents' house. I do think, however, that the system is built in such a way that a false-choice of specialty encourages people to move outside of their native regions for no particular reason.

Staying within a region is not the same as saying that someone should continue to live with their parents. Undoubtedly we have too much of that right now.

Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#22

Post by jgranby »

jcromartie wrote: post #16
gfodor wrote: post #11

A common problem I have with articles like this is they are often coming from folks who had a horrible experience going through the contemporary educational system. This results in them throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and oscillating in the extreme opposite direction, trying to move us as far away from the way things are today as they can. At the risk of being called a South Park philosopher, I think for ed…

> I think having people be transplanted away from their families and friends for a 4 year hiatus to focus on learning is a crucial part of becoming a well rounded person. If someone asked you how to educate a society and this was the answer you gave, they might think you were crazy.

Not necessarily. The idea that higher education should be organised with all the best professors &c. in one place, and students come from all around to a centralised place of learning, isn't crazy at all. And, as gfodor pointed out, those 4 years are character-building.

I think the article raises some issues but in far too aggressive a way. There are problems with the way students are forced to pick a career path so early, but the assertion that "any system that asks you to devalue a relationship with place or with extended family is evil" doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. He doesn't consider any of the benefits of spending time away from home, and doesn't really back up his claim with anything at all.

Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#23

Post by davetroy »

kmcgivney wrote: post #13

Towards the end of the article, he reaches a conclusion about the importance of regional self-sufficiency which I don't understand at all. Firstly, because it has seemingly no connection to anything he was writing about. Secondly, because it contradicts basic economics of comparative advantage.

Regional self sufficiency is exactly what I was writing about; did you miss the part about disconnection from place?

And no, it doesn't contradict notions of comparative advantage. It puts a value on connection to place that the current system has valued at zero. By valuing connection to place you neutralize notions of competitive advantage achieved by absolute mobility.

This doesn't mean physical mobility is a bad thing, it just means that long term connection to a place should be valued. As such it acts as a tempering force against mobility. There's a reasonable middle ground and our system denies that.

Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#24

Post by davetroy »

jgranby wrote: post #22
jcromartie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think having people be transplanted away from their families and friends for a 4 year hiatus to focus on learning is a crucial part of becoming a well rounded person. If someone asked you how to educate a society and this was the answer you gave, they might think you were crazy.

Not necessarily. The idea that higher education should be organised with all the best professors &c. in one place, and students come from all around to a centralised place of learning, isn't crazy at all. And, as gfodor pointed out, those 4 years are character-building. I think the article raises some issues but in far too aggressive a way. There are problems with the way students are forced to pick a career path so…

I suggest that you tune in for the next post, which will discuss the downsides of excess mobility in society, in very specific ways.

Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#25

Post by apsec112 »

I agree with many of the points in this article, but this:

"You’re asked inane questions about what you want to study (unanswerable at that age), shown some brochures, and make a fundamentally random choice about where you want to spend the next four years of your life."

is lies. Lots of upper class and upper-middle class children are told explicitly by their parents that they should go into the most prestigious college they can get into, and most follow that advice. The middle class doesn't as much, which helps the upper classes preserve social immobility.

"Is it so hard to see now why so many wealthy, jet-setting people are unhappy and commit suicide? "

More lies. Rich people are, in fact, happier (on average) than non-rich people. See, eg. http://lesswrong.com/lw/ub/competent_elites/.

Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#26

Post by gfodor »

pbz wrote: post #20
jcromartie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think having people be transplanted away from their families and friends for a 4 year hiatus to focus on learning is a crucial part of becoming a well rounded person. If someone asked you how to educate a society and this was the answer you gave, they might think you were crazy.

There are other things you need to learn beside what's in books, like how to live on your own, be responsible for your actions and so forth. Living away from the nest can be helpful in learning these things. I don't understand why this would make you "crazy."

Right. Another big thing I didn't mention explicitly is that college exposes students to people outside their comfort zone. Cross pollination of ideas and culture are hugely important if we want to stamp out racism, ignorance, and intolerance.

Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#27

Post by jcromartie »

jgranby wrote: post #22
jcromartie wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think having people be transplanted away from their families and friends for a 4 year hiatus to focus on learning is a crucial part of becoming a well rounded person. If someone asked you how to educate a society and this was the answer you gave, they might think you were crazy.

Not necessarily. The idea that higher education should be organised with all the best professors &c. in one place, and students come from all around to a centralised place of learning, isn't crazy at all. And, as gfodor pointed out, those 4 years are character-building. I think the article raises some issues but in far too aggressive a way. There are problems with the way students are forced to pick a career path so…

It's not crazy for specialized schooling, but it is another thing to suggest that it's the best way to educate a society.

Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#28

Post by tpyo »

pg wrote: post #14

"Because of the reliance on the corporation, we set out to design an educational system in its mirror image. The linear journey from first to twelfth grade, then bachelor’s, master’s, and doctorate degrees systematized learning in a way that turned people into interchangeable parts and valued mobility." This is false. This progression predated the corporation. The present educational system has been influenced by the…

Yeah, I'm sick of seeing that idea being passed about without sources. I think most of the people talking about it haven't even heard of John Taylor Gatto, which is where it came from.

But, do you have sources?

Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#29

Post by pg »

tpyo wrote: post #28
pg wrote: post #14

"Because of the reliance on the corporation, we set out to design an educational system in its mirror image. The linear journey from first to twelfth grade, then bachelor’s, master’s, and doctorate degrees systematized learning in a way that turned people into interchangeable parts and valued mobility." This is false. This progression predated the corporation. The present educational system has been influenced by the…

Yeah, I'm sick of seeing that idea being passed about without sources. I think most of the people talking about it haven't even heard of John Taylor Gatto, which is where it came from. But, do you have sources?

I read a lot about the history of education for "The Age of the Essay." There are links to some in the notes.

Re: How Education is Ruining Your Life

#30

Post by nazgulnarsil »

pg wrote: post #14

"Because of the reliance on the corporation, we set out to design an educational system in its mirror image. The linear journey from first to twelfth grade, then bachelor’s, master’s, and doctorate degrees systematized learning in a way that turned people into interchangeable parts and valued mobility." This is false. This progression predated the corporation. The present educational system has been influenced by the…

well, I suppose its not incorrect to say the roots are medieval, but it is most accurate to lay the foundation of our educational system with the prussian school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system

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