AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#331

Post by draaglom » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #252

eggy wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree somewhat, but then what is your gauge for superhuman if not some type of competition? How do you evaluate it? On another note, Rocky Marciano had the mafia behind him. Harry Haft fought him and was knocked out, and later claimed the mafia told him he had to throw the fight [1]. There's also a good graphic novel about this. Maybe the AI's goons have threatened Sedol or kin ;) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

>> what is your gauge for superhuman if not some type of competition? To be honest- I don't have one. My intuition is that we can't have a good definition of "superhuman intelligence" because having one would require us to demonstrate superhuman intelligence ourselves. Which is obviously a contradiction.

Intuitively, a calculator is not superhuman. A person who could do mental arithmetic as well as a calculator? That would seem to be superhuman. If you find out that they were using a calculator under the table the whole time, they're not superhuman any more.

So I think the word "superhuman" must imply a fair competition, in the sense that the participants are competing using comparable approaches. For some definition of comparable.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#332

Post by ljk » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

pushrax wrote: post #31

It's important to remember that this is an accomplishment of humanity, not a defeat. By constructing this AI, we are simply creating another tool for advancing our state of being. (or something like that)

Sounds a little like what the villains always say in the movies....

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#333

Post by jmathes » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:20 PM UTC

kurlberg wrote: post #99

Radim wrote: post #57

In a recent interview [1], Hassabis (DeepMind founder) said they'd try training AlphaGo from scratch next, so it learns from first principles. Without the bootstrapping step of "learn from a database of human games", which introduce human prejudice. As a Go player, I'm really excited to see what kind of play will come from that! [1] http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/10/11192774/demis-hassabis-in...

A case of life imitating AI koans: Uncarved block In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6. "What are you doing?", asked Minsky. "I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", Sussman replied. "Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky. "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said. Minsky then shut his eyes. "Why…

It sounds like the point of this story is to illustrate by analogy that starting from first principles is sometimes a silly way to approach a problem, and by extrapolation that it's a silly way to make an AI that plays Go well.

Making an AI that plays Go well is not (and has never been) the real goal. They're trying to learn how to build a AI that can solve any problem.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#334

Post by adrianN » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #233

m0g wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your pocket calculator is superhuman at arithmetic. Alphago is superhuman at go. It's not a big deal.

The 2x4 in my floor has superhuman strength by that definition. Kind of a pointless term if it's just to mean what humans can't do.

That's literally what it means though.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#335

Post by dang » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:31 PM UTC

scrollaway wrote: post #22

pkrumins wrote: post #4

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If, as you believe, this post was "assigned" points (which only HN staff can theoretically do), what do you believe you will achieve by flagging it?

All the points came from regular upvotes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11271815 was indeed posted earlier. Unfortunately, youtu.be is banned because it is heavily favored by spammers. That's why that post didn't get seen.

We've assigned that video to the current submission (using the canonical youtube.com URL) since it was posted without a link.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#336

Post by zardo » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

alextgordon wrote: post #104

pushrax wrote: post #31

It's important to remember that this is an accomplishment of humanity, not a defeat. By constructing this AI, we are simply creating another tool for advancing our state of being. (or something like that)

What is our purpose if computers can do everything better than us? It feels like computers have taken one aspect of humanness: logic. Computers could do arithmetic, do algebra, play chess, and now they can play go. It hurts because logic is usually thought to be one of the highest of human characteristics. Yes computers might never be able to replicate emotion, but even dogs have that. There's still some aspects we h…

>What is our purpose if computers can do everything better than us?

You think we have one now?

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#337

Post by Barrin92 » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

sleepychu wrote: post #158

radicalbyte wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human strength is also "built on human strength" so I don't see the problem? :)

It's not truly artificial if it's using a human playbook. (Is the problem posed by the parent, I believe.)

What is 'truly artificial'?

Neural networks are modeled after biological systems to begin with, I don't the that's a meaningful concept at all.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#338

Post by mannykannot » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

quanticle wrote: post #166

studentrob wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll grant that for this very constrained problem ;-) I respect your work a lot. I've studied and used ML myself, including gensim, in industry. I've given nowhere near your level of contribution to society / the field. My opinion is true AI is quite a ways off. I haven't read anything from a ML researcher that says it isn't. Perhaps you weren't saying true AI is nearer.

I find it funny that whenever there's a case of computers being able to do something that they couldn't before, whether it's drive or beat humans at Go, the goalpost on what is "true AI" shifts to be something that computers can't do yet. So let me ask you this. What would you consider to be "true AI"? At what point are you willing to say, "Okay, that's it, computers are just plain smarter than we are?" Because, fran…

> What would you consider to be "true AI"?

When a computer itself makes a persuasive argument that it is intelligent (without coaching.)

I have always believed AI is possible, and I am undecided whether current techniques alone will get us there, or whether other breakthroughs are needed, but I have no time for premature claims of success.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#339

Post by MagnumOpus » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

qznc wrote: post #209

tzs wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully Google does not do what IBM did and stop playing after they win. IBM lost in 1996, 2-4, and then won in 1997, 3.5-2.5. If they had played a third match with Kasparov, especially a longer match, it is not at all clear that they would have won. Kasparov asked for a third match of 10 games, to be played over 20 days, but IBM would not give it to him.

What is the point? What a few years and you can get an equivalent AI on your home computer. Play as many games as you want. Of course, you can change rules as much as you want and generate new marketing events. Personally, I would like a match where the AI is only allowed the energy a human uses. I guess, AlphaGo would lose with only 2000 kcal (2.3 kWh). Not sure about chess.

A custom-built chess computer comsuming 200W would certainly win against Carlsen - even the smartphone in your pocket might.

Pocket Fritz (HIARCS) was winning Grandmaster tournaments and got rated at 2800-2900 Elo - on a smartphone in 2009 using 1W worth of power without offloading to a GPU. The GPU in a more modern phone like the Samsung Galaxy S5 can crunch 140 GFLOPS - an order of magnitude more than Deep Blue (11 GFLOPS). Allowing 200W of power draw raises your computation power into the TFLOPS area (using a PS4, say). No contest - even without two decades of chess engine improvement over Deep Blue.

Re: AlphaGo beats Lee Sedol 3-0 [video]

#340

Post by asmyers » Sat, Mar 12, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

Does anyone know if the AlphaGo team is saving the probability of winning assignments that AlphaGo gave its moves?

It would be fascinating to see how early AlphaGo assigned very high probability of it winning. It would also be interesting to see if there were particular moves which changed this assignment a lot. For instance, are there moves that Lee Sedol made for which the win probability is very different for the AlphaGo moves before and after?